category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[Abellia 504]

3 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

No right now I use adrenaline and I find it stronger than ap freeze 

Adrenaline doesn't have a permanent buff, only takes one immunity to fully counter, and doesn't provide any extra utilities.
AP is effectively an infinite 10% buff, takes two immunities (which is impossible, in case you didn't know) to fully counter, allows you to deal regular damage against Defender and Crisis players, allows your teammates to deal double damage to whoever you're attacking, and allows you to deal regular damage against people in titan domes.

Mhm yes I'd like to say that Autocannon is the strongest Smoky augment and that EMP sucks (can't wait for someone to come into this thread and say "but autocannon is strong").

[flyingfire 10]

7 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Adrenaline doesn't have a permanent buff, only takes one immunity to fully counter, and doesn't provide any extra utilities.
AP is effectively an infinite 10% buff, takes two immunities (which is impossible, in case you didn't know) to fully counter, allows you to deal regular damage against Defender and Crisis players, allows your teammates to deal double damage to whoever you're attacking, and allows you to deal regular damage against people in titan domes.

Mhm yes I'd like to say that Autocannon is the strongest Smoky augment and that EMP sucks (can't wait for someone to come into this thread and say "but autocannon is strong").

There are plenty of strong augments for each turret that you can buy for crystals. Now you can get legendary augment from normal containers and more people have a chance to use them. Auto-canon is strong especially with hornet overdrive.

[Abellia 504]

2 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

There are plenty of strong augments for each turret that you can buy for crystals. Now you can get legendary augment from normal containers and more people have a chance to use them. Auto-canon is strong especially with hornet overdrive.

Now - are the strongest legendary augments stronger than the strongest crystal augments?

And if you say they should be, then:

25 minutes ago, Abellia said:

There is no reason Legendary augments should be "special" or stronger than garage augments, from a balance standpoint.

The only reasons anyone could have to support that are ulterior motives, such as wanting to preserve the brokenness of the legendary augments they own.

 

[flyingfire 10]

2 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Now - are the strongest legendary augments stronger than the strongest crystal augments?

And if you say they should be, then:

 

let me using railgun and hammer as an example.  It has ap, stun rounds, cryo, and fire. Maybe it has emp but I don't have it and I cant say anything. But out of all those legendary augments round destabilization augment that you buy for crystals is the best. I use it the most because its strong and op. I can one shot small hull and sometime medium hulls with no prot. Pair round destab with booster and hornet its the strongest combo. For hammer, blunderbuss and magnetic pellets that some people say are the best augment are crap. slugger, duplet and dragon breath are the best augments for hammer and you can buy them for crystals.

[Abellia 504]

1 minute ago, flyingfire said:

let me using railgun and hammer as an example.  It has ap, stun rounds, cryo, and fire. Maybe it has emp but I don't have it and I cant say anything. But out of all those legendary augments round destabilization augment that you buy for crystals is the best. I use it the most because its strong and op. I can one shot small hull and sometime medium hulls with no prot. Pair round destab with booster and hornet its the strongest combo. For hammer, blunderbuss and magnetic pellets that some people say are the best augment are crap. slugger, duplet and dragon breath are the best augments for hammer and you can buy them for crystals.

LMFAO this feels like a huge bait. AP is much, much stronger than Round Destabilization - generally higher damage output, as well as a status.

Saying Magnetic Pellets is crap is just wrong, I don't think I even need to explain beyond EMP is busted and Magnetic Pellets is statistically superior to stock even without the status. Duplet is actually hilariously one of the worst Hammer augments currently.

You're not presenting any actual facts and somehow even though you're arguing through anecdote, you're still wrong. Impressive.

Have you actually played any of these augments?

[flyingfire 10]

11 minutes ago, Abellia said:

LMFAO this feels like a huge bait. AP is much, much stronger than Round Destabilization - generally higher damage output, as well as a status.

Saying Magnetic Pellets is crap is just wrong, I don't think I even need to explain beyond EMP is busted and Magnetic Pellets is statistically superior to stock even without the status. Duplet is actually hilariously one of the worst Hammer augments currently.

You're not presenting any actual facts and somehow even though you're arguing through anecdote, you're still wrong. Impressive.

Have you actually played any of these augments?

Yes I have all of the augments. For hammer I have every augment except the freezing one. I use duplet with booster or crisis and its better at getting kills than emp hammer. Im saying from my experience since I tried almost all of the legendary augments. I didn't just test them out on test server I have them on my accounts. Accounts both low and high ranked and I experienced playing with them at low and high rank. At low ranks you do have advantage but at high ranks you don't. Your speaking like you mostly play at low rank battles.

[Abellia 504]

Just now, flyingfire said:

Yes I have all of the augments. For hammer I have every augment except the freezing one. I use duplet with booster or crisis and its better at getting kills than emp hammer. Im saying from my experience since I tried almost all of the legendary augments. I didn't just test them out on test server I have them on my accounts. Accounts both low and high ranked and I experienced playing with them at low and high rank. At low ranks you do have advantage but at high ranks you don't. Your speaking like you mostly play at low rank battles.

Actually, it sounds like you mostly play at low rank battles, because EMP is stronger the more upgraded your opponents' drones are.

I don't think you have any actual experience since you have not provided any combat examples with augments, just that "I think x". 
 

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, flyingfire said:

Complain that ap freeze is way to nerfed. I only use the al freeze against defender and crisis drones in battle or I use it in parkour to look cool. Other than that there are stronger augment that you can buy for crystals.

There's no way adrenaline is stronger than AP unless you are almost dead.  then... you die.

If you think there are better garage augments, use them.

"Legendary" augments are supposed to be hard to obtain - not ruin the balance.  They give a tactical option not available to garage augments.  Use them - or don't.

But you won't find many in sympathy with you because they don't give you even greater advantages.

[Frylock 1,617]

2 hours ago, flyingfire said:

I agree with you about the emp freeze. I used it and it’s strong. But ap freeze that got nerfed is now bad. I don’t know if you played with any of those augment but I spent a lot of time playing with ap freeze and after the  nerf I see my self using adrenaline or high pressure pump more. They nerfed toxic freeze to the ground. It already deals less damage and take more time to kill. The only advantage with ap freeze is against crisis and defender users. People with crisis are indestructible and ap freeze and other ap augment are the only chance against them. I do t use jamming mix and I don’t know if it’s any good but emp mix is op. Now what’s the point of nerfing legendary augments and make them bad? There is a reason why you can’t buy them for crystals and when they nerf them ,the augment that you can buy for crystals become as good as legendary augment.

Am I reading this right? Or am I losing my mind... You can't be serious about this can you? I own ap freeze myself and despite the "nerf" it gotten, I am still able to get easy kills with it. Can you please explain why you think it sucks?  Because to me I still think its strong especially if the user is using hornet with it. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by MysticBlood

[Incorp 2,084]

@Abellia I got a good idea how to slightly nerf gauss but not too harshly. 

My idea work like this:

If the EMP or AP Gauss lock on to a player with immunity to their affect, the splash damage won't apply the affect to the tanks around him. What do you think?

[Abellia 504]

2 hours ago, Incorp said:

@Abellia I got a good idea how to slightly nerf gauss but not too harshly. 

My idea work like this:

If the EMP or AP Gauss lock on to a player with immunity to their affect, the splash damage won't apply the affect to the tanks around him. What do you think?

That would be a good idea if you wanted a small nerf. However, that is unnecessary coding work considering that it should more realistically receive a bigger nerf that would be more effectively applied through the stats, since it would take less time for people to adapt if the augment is mechanically identical, but just weakened to match said mechanics.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

I would love if EMP Gauss got more statistical nerf than AP gauss, EMP got buffed passively, keeping Gauss EMP more overpowered as it is.

[Cor7y 13,862]

15 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

I myself use Railgun a lot and my most used turret. I can say that incendiary rounds can perform slightly better than EMP gauss.  The fact that I can peek corners and shoot is a lot more effective for one since it can instant hit. Secondly, it honestly depends on how the player uses the augment. Also a gauss player would have to reset its lock on every time a player hides behind the wall. Thus why I put incendiary rail a little higher than EMP gauss because of the easy peek and shoot tactic. I find the peak and shoot tactic more annoying than a status gauss trying to lock onto me. 

You've clearly never played Assault or Siege, have you?

EMP Gauss is a nightmare in those modes. It disables supplies of all enemies in its damage radius who don't have EMP immunity, as well as dealing a great amount of damage to everyone in the splash radius.

To top it all off, it has a 100% chance of applying EMP status affect in sniping mode.
Considering all these parameters, how in the heck can you say EMP Gauss doesn't need a nerf? It's not comparable to other status effect augments, not by far....

[LambSauce 1,884]

3 hours ago, Cor7y said:

You've clearly never played Assault or Siege, have you?

EMP Gauss is a nightmare in those modes. It disables supplies of all enemies in its damage radius who don't have EMP immunity, as well as dealing a great amount of damage to everyone in the splash radius.

To top it all off, it has a 100% chance of applying EMP status affect in sniping mode.
Considering all these parameters, how in the heck can you say EMP Gauss doesn't need a nerf? It's not comparable to other status effect augments, not by far....

That user is a troll who bas been arguing how Gauss EMP isn’t at all overpowered for at least a year.

[Frylock 1,617]

7 hours ago, Cor7y said:

You've clearly never played Assault or Siege, have you?

EMP Gauss is a nightmare in those modes. It disables supplies of all enemies in its damage radius who don't have EMP immunity, as well as dealing a great amount of damage to everyone in the splash radius.

To top it all off, it has a 100% chance of applying EMP status affect in sniping mode.
Considering all these parameters, how in the heck can you say EMP Gauss doesn't need a nerf? It's not comparable to other status effect augments, not by far....

I never said EMP Gauss didn't need a nerf. If you read my posts carefully, you would have seen me already say that I agree with a some type of nerf. I was just stating my reason why status gauss isn't considered the most broken when comparing to other status augments. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by MysticBlood

[Abellia 504]

Okay, so status rails - double dependency on crits and their status, bigger nerf. It's the same logic the devs used making the critical changes to begin with, so I don't see an issue with the nerfs proposed here - they fit the balancing scheme that seems to have been used most recently.

Let's start with the biggest offenders.

EMP Rounds:
Critical damage -20%
Normal damage -20%
Status duration -20% (4 second EMP duration)

Very simple changes here. It can no longer break 1.5k+ (twoshotting medium hulls) on criticals and it can no longer break 750+ on normal shots (fourshotting medium hulls) when used in conjunction with Booster, Crisis, and Camper. It also has a tighter window to get a followup shot after it deals EMP.

Incendiary Rounds:
Critical damage -40%

Also simple changes here. Instead of being stock railgun with a ton of extra damage from burning, it is now stock railgun with a small amount of extra damage that it takes additional time to deal and that can be prevented with the use of a repair kit. Before anyone screams this is too far, against a brutus player with DA, the crit STILL deals 2286 damage if all of the burning goes through. Shut your mouths.

Now, the second biggest offenders: 

Stun Rounds:
Shot reload -90%
Shot warmup penalty removed
Normal damage +20%


Still a simple change. This is a 1:1 copy of Large Caliber Rounds, except you trade your 20% critical damage buff for Stuns. It's a stun augment, for crying out loud. It stops whoever you crit from playing the game. Practically speaking, it still has a 50% chance to stop overdrives, it still works for stopping Strikers, Vulcans, Gausses, Shafts, Magnums, and Rails.

It just doesn't do damage anymore, and it shouldn't with how much utility Stun offers.

Super Armor-Piercing Rounds:
Reload -15%
Shot warmup time 0.77s(-30%)
Max critical chance = 100% (consecutive critical chance stays at 0%)
Critical damage -50%
Normal damage buff removed
Impact force -40%
Status duration -40% (3 second AP duration)

So, if this doesn't already look familiar, this is Electromagnetic Accelerator "Scout" with a couple of interesting tradeoffs - the crits are guaranteed to happen every other hit, the crits don't break 750+, and it has a slightly slower reload. Don't worry, I was a little bit nicer this time, both shots still break 750+ with booster, it's just that it still can't chain two critical hits together. By the way, it can still fit a second shot within its AP duration - I left it a generous 0.02 second window to do so.

Now for the least offensive Railgun.

Cryo Rounds:
Reload -20%
Shot warmup time 0.77s(-30%)
Critical damage -50%
Impact force -40%
Target's temperature reduction lowered from -100% to -50%

I don't really see a need for this one to get a massive nerf, so this is more of a rework than anything - it's like Super Armor-Piercing Rounds where it's an alteration to Scout with less critical damage, except it has identical reload and critical chance to Scout, with the ability to constantly apply a temperature reduction rather than a massive amount of it once every few hits.

Now before anyone complains - consider the following.
1. These changes are meant to bring about balance to the game
1a. Balance means all pieces of equipment are relatively comparable in power to the other pieces of equipment in their category, regardless of how they are acquired. This means that all augments are to be pushed towards a "target power level" which in my eyes is where the strongest garage             augments currently sit, which dictates nerfs for most legendary augments and buffs for most garage augments.
2. Status railguns operate on a double dependency, and thus need two times, or close to two times the nerfs to compensate.
2a. A double dependency means that they require an extra piece of equipment to fully counter - status augments are already a doubled dependency relative to regular augments, and Railgun is by default a doubled dependency thanks to its innately high critical chance (although the balance for its garage augments already compensate for its high critical rate, leaving the status augments closer in practice to a double dependency than triple)
3. I do not care about how powerful you think an augment "should be because it's hard to get"  I will tear your arguments to shreds using the above two points if you post something similarly stupid.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Abellia

[NikmanGT 4,362]

Fair enough

13 minutes ago, Abellia said:

3. I do not care about what you think an augment "should do" and I will tear your arguments to shreds using the above two points if you post something stupid.

What is the point of discussion then, if you already have allowed no discussion-Policy from the beginning. No argument is stupid, if you believe the other user is wrong, you can always correct him/her using fair and constructive points of your own, meaningfully and respectfully.

[Abellia 504]

14 minutes ago, NikmanGT said:

Fair enough

What is the point of discussion then, if you already have allowed no discussion-Policy from the beginning. No argument is stupid, if you believe the other user is wrong, you can always correct him/her using fair and constructive points of your own, meaningfully and respectfully.

 

27 minutes ago, Abellia said:

I will tear your arguments to shreds using the above two points

I think there certainly are stupid/illogical arguments, and in the context of suggesting changes for balance, anything that is vulnerable to being countered by literally two points is not a good argument. Any argument that uses "the augment should x powerful" in the context of an archetype does not work when you are using it in the context of bringing an augment to balance - for example, "AP Freeze should be stronger because it's a legendary augment".

Also, I made it clear that you can go ahead and post it if you want, just that it'll get destroyed. Meaningfully and respectfully.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Abellia

[BruhBruhThingThing 413]

3 hours ago, Abellia said:

Meaningfully and respectfully.

Which you seem to have a very bad track record of.

@NikmanGT has a point. The forum is supposed to be a friendly place to discuss things. Yet here you are basically willing on an argument just for the sake of continuing it. Like I said with your last argument with mystic, its sometimes better to agree to disagree than to waste your time continuing it.

I've seen it multiple times on multiple different sections or platforms or whatever. The longer and more aggressive the argument is, the more damage it causes.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather lose an argument than have it cause damage. There is absolutely no shame in losing the argument early. In fact, you're being the better person trying to end it before it gets worse.

[Incorp 2,084]

2 hours ago, Abellia said:

Now for the least offensive Railgun.

Cryo Rounds:
Reload -20%
Shot warmup time 0.77s(-30%)
Critical damage -50%
Impact force -40%
Target's temperature reduction lowered from -100% to -50%

I agree that this augment I'd the least offensive one. It doesn't need a rework or a NERF. It is as powerful as STOCK railgun SHOULD be. It is PERFECTLY balanced. Seriously, I don't see a need to nerf it, there isn't a problem with it. 

I have always liked your meeting ideas, but railgun statuses shouldn't be considered as giants AT ALL. they are balanced already.

Another point;  if your goal is to make augments balanced to each other, then how about making them as balanced a STOCK turrets? It makes no sense. Railgun status augments are best left the way they are right now; they are pretty well balanced already.

A point in case you try to shred my argument to pieces:

1. Railgun statuses a4e perfectly balanced. Even tho they have 50 percent crit chance, I could go 4 shots without crits, and likewise 4 shots WITH crits. So please, don't try to nerf a balanced augment.

[Frylock 1,617]

2 hours ago, BruhBruhThingThing said:

Yet here you are basically willing on an argument just for the sake of continuing it. Like I said with your last argument with mystic, its sometimes better to agree to disagree than to waste your time continuing it.

To be fair that person wasn't being provocative at me; that was a solid argument. On the serious note: if no harm is done to me and why even bother 3rd partying and trying to say what that person is doing is wrong??? I find nothing wrong with not giving up if the person wanted to keep going or make more valid arguments through thorough analysis or reasoning why they think the way they think.  

Edited February 7, 2022 by MysticBlood

[BruhBruhThingThing 413]

6 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

To be fair that person wasn't being provocative at me; that was a solid argument. On the serious note: if no harm is done to me and why even bother 3rd partying and trying to say what that person is doing is wrong??? I find nothing wrong with not giving up if the person wanted to keep going or make more valid arguments through thorough analysis or reasoning why they think the way they think.  

Not all arguments cause damage to the persons engaging in it. Sometimes it would damage or tarnish something else like the environment of the forum. I've seen it plenty of times across multiple platforms.

An example of this is easily the topic you guys had your argument in. Its been dead silent since then.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

@BruhBruhThingThing @MysticBlood I am not refraining you guys from conversing nor arguing, it's the sole basis of Forum.

Just try not to provoke one another or any group in general, make the other person understand your ideology through facts, not hatred 

Note to all: If you find a message highly provoking, don't reply to it with hatred comments, instead PM the guy asking why he wrote this or report the message, and we'll deal with it

[LambSauce 1,884]

3 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

Note to all: If you find a message highly provoking, don't reply to it with hatred comments, instead PM the guy asking why he wrote this or report the message, and we'll deal with it

So I should PM them and ask, “why did you react with ‘Shrug’ to almost every single comment of mine that I made yesterday across the forum?”

Yeah, good luck to anyone doing that PM.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

4 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

So I should PM them and ask, “why did you react with ‘Shrug’ to almost every single comment of mine that I made yesterday across the forum?”

Yeah, good luck to anyone doing that PM.

If they are doing it continuously, ignoring the user is the appropriate choice.