category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 10/2/2024 at 1:54 AM, Maf said:

Eh, from my (very limited) experience with Smoky, its only problem is that the projectile radius is too small, so you often end up missing moving targets even if you aim well, simply because the target gets out of the way. No such issues with Thunder/Scorpion/Gauss etc.

The projectile radius has been twice as big as the others for a long time now. Still doesn't stop the shots from randomly phasing through enemies, ESPECIALLY Paladins. I get it against a lot of hulls but for me it happens way too frequently against Paladins.

Even Opex seems to be floored on how to fix it 3 years and counting.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 2:29 AM, Wry said:

So if you missed a shot with smoky rather than saying its the turret's problem 

But it is, though. Is it a skill issue for me to be stationary, the enemy to be stationary, and my shot goes straight through them dealing no damage? Is it a skill issue for me to be shooting a Paladin head on and have half or more of my shots going through them?

I, too, think Smoky has nice damage output when the accuracy is high. Even harder to effectively use turrets like Twins has good damage when the accuracy is high. But with Smoky it isn't, and it has been a problem since it turned projectile. There was a brief period in 2022 where I had to go back to PC. The experience was a downgrade compared to Android but I quickly noticed where and how to feel comfortable shooting Smoky for high accuracy and I was able to enjoy the turret there rather than be frustrated. But if my accuracy back then was as bad as it is now, I would have put the turret down quickly. 

[Maf 32,300]

On 10/2/2024 at 2:33 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

The projectile radius has been twice as big as the others for a long time now. Still doesn't stop the shots from randomly phasing through enemies, ESPECIALLY Paladins. I get it against a lot of hulls but for me it happens way too frequently against Paladins.

Even Opex seems to be floored on how to fix it 3 years and counting.

Oh, that's wild. Seems like such a simple issue on the surface, yet here we are...

[ZHU-HE 0]

@AcnoIogiaNo,2280 cant kill any one,even a light hull with 15% protection, and maybe you cant make every shoot 760. As a short-range turret,its DPS is no more than 1000, it is stupid. And Tesla ,you can kill the enemies in a strange angle,just above them ,on the high floor, with your balls.But what is the ability of Hammer? Low dps, difficult  to control, short range,you even cant kill a medium range turret smoky.

[ZHU-HE 0]

@TheCongoSpider Man, go to count how many the strikers` protections in the battles,or play without the protection to it,then tell me which turret usually gets the highest points!It cant be hammer!

[ZHU-HE 0]

@Pleasant 760+760=1520,how can you kill a medium hull with 3000 hp? If with a 5% protection,4 maybe not enough. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:21 AM, ZHU-HE said:

@TheCongoSpider Man, go to count how many the strikers` protections in the battles,or play without the protection to it,then tell me which turret usually gets the highest points!It cant be hammer!

You said hard to use turrets should be powerful. For the average player Striker is hard to use, and it is powerful. Therefore it should stay as it is by your words. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 9/28/2024 at 1:51 AM, ZHU-HE said:

have you ever played hammer?do you know how poor it is ?thunder`s dps is nearly more than hammer,and it is more easy to control. A difficult-controling gun should be powerful! And striker is too powerful,look at the number of protection against striker!

What is your opinion of the High-Capacity Ammo Clip augment?

[Wry 93]

On 10/2/2024 at 1:33 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

The projectile radius has been twice as big as the others for a long time now. Still doesn't stop the shots from randomly phasing through enemies, ESPECIALLY Paladins.

On 10/2/2024 at 1:33 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

But it is, though. Is it a skill issue for me to be stationary, the enemy to be stationary, and my shot goes straight through them dealing no damage? Is it a skill issue for me to be shooting a Paladin head on and have half or more of my shots going through them?

its not like the devs intentionally make smoky's shots whether it will hit or not determined by random factors. All of my 1100 hours on smoky were after the projectile update and I can say that smoky with non-hovering hulls is much more controllable since you can control the downward and upward degree of the tank to control your shots direction unlike hovering hulls where you basically just hovering around without any noticeable upward or downward movement. Just like isida being easy to control and use with paladin or crus but a lot harder to control using wasp, it is easier to notice the difference if you use Sustainable Nanobots augment to compare.

The tank's volume as a factor plays a part in determining how hard is it to hit the target, so the easiest tank to hit is dictator and the hardest ones are paladin, crus and hopper since they are too thin compared to other tanks.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 1:33 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

There was a brief period in 2022 where I had to go back to PC. The experience was a downgrade compared to Android but I quickly noticed where and how to feel comfortable shooting Smoky for high accuracy and I was able to enjoy the turret there rather than be frustrated.

You saying this proves that hitting shots using smoky is about skill rather than luck or randomness, since phone has aim assist. So as long as skill is the deciding factor of hitting shots using smoky I have no problem with it. 

[AcnoIogia 46]

On 10/2/2024 at 3:16 PM, ZHU-HE said:

@AcnoIogiaNo,2280 cant kill any one,even a light hull with 15% protection, and maybe you cant make every shoot 760. As a short-range turret,its DPS is no more than 1000, it is stupid. And Tesla ,you can kill the enemies in a strange angle,just above them ,on the high floor, with your balls.But what is the ability of Hammer? Low dps, difficult  to control, short range,you even cant kill a medium range turret smoky.

5 ammo augment = 3800 damage

Assault magazine = you shoot out all 3 shots in 0.6 seconds and reload in  1,87 seconds

Hunter Duplet & Heavy Slugger = 80-120m range (becomes medium range turret)

Large Caliber Pellets = Old Hammer

Blunderbuss = High critical chance, big damage

Adaptive Reload = faster reload between shots, and if you kill someone you have instant reload

Tanki is, was and always will determine a turrets strength by mostly Legendary augments, and based on these... Hammer IS strong!

Tesla's lightning ball reloads in 6 seconds, and it is very rare event that a Tesla will kill someone under bridge or something like that... and don't forget that Teslas damage split if there are more enemies, and it becomes less

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 10/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, Wry said:

You saying this proves that hitting shots using smoky is about skill rather than luck or randomness, since phone has aim assist. 

Yes, mobile has horizontal auto-aim as well as vertical yet that still didn't stop it from randomly phasing through enemies. It just happened less often than on PC. 

 

On 10/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, Wry said:

its not like the devs intentionally make smoky's shots whether it will hit or not determined by random factors

I didn't say that, but there is an issue somewhere.  It's been a common complaint about Smoky since the transition. It was shortly touched on in a Q&A they did a while back. Opex himself acknowledged the issue with increasing the projectile radius and this random comment.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, Wry said:

The tank's volume as a factor plays a part in determining how hard is it to hit the target, so the easiest tank to hit is dictator and the hardest ones are paladin, crus and hopper since they are too thin compared to other tanks.

Back then Smoky wasn't the only thing I was having this phasing issue with. Crusader icicles were a common happening but that thing was always bugged to high hell so it gets a pass. I've had it happen with turrets like Thunder, Striker, Scorpion, Ricochet and Gauss arcade. It happened a varying amount to different hulls but the ones it happened to the most were Vikings (any skin), Hunters (HD skin in particular) and Paladin, with Paladin being the most frequent. Countless times I only needed one more hit to kill a Paladin on their OD and my shot would just go straight through them. It's one of the reasons I loathed Paladin back then because I knew there was a decent chance that my shot would just go through them. 

Since then it's been ironed out for every turret except Smoky for me.

[Frylock 1,617]

On 9/29/2024 at 7:35 PM, AcnoIogia said:

I think hammer is fine, if you take that It deals 760 damage and the shot reload is 0,8 seconds. You can deal 2280 damage in 2,4 seconds. (If all your pellets hit and no critical damage/protection/extra armors involved) After that, ofc there is that "hard" waiting time 2,5 second clip reload. But even the 5 shot augment makes it very good, cause you can shoot 5 times without the need to reload the clip which after the reload becomes 3 seconds, only 0,5s more... or you can do Adaptive Reload, if you kill instant reload... and to be honest Hammer has many many augments that you can use and have a different playing style. (don't even mention Assault Magazine)

Let's compare the basics of your Hammer, with my favorite turret Tesla:

Tesla - Hammer

630 Damage 760

710 Critical Damage 1160

0,75 Reload (sec) 0,8

(doesn't have) Minimum damage range (m) 60

20 Maximum damage range (m) 40

I only did the basics, now of course Tesla has a lightning ball which deals 1160 damage but the reload of it is 6 seconds, and as I said Hammer does have a 2,5 second clip reload, but if you compare, you see hammer has a better stat in everything except reload, and even that tesla only wins by 0,05seconds... Mind you! Tesla is a melee range turret and supposed to have superior damage and reload over short-medium-long range turrets! But oh well, it isn't! So actually Tesla should be the one getting a buff!

If you compare Tesla to other melee range turrets, Freeze and Fire has a 1200 damage/sec Isida has 1160 damage/sec, If I do the math Tesla is doing 840 damage/sec!!!

Yes I know you should not only see the "Time To Kill"... but if you check, Freeze and Firebird apply a status effect with every hit (freezing removes damage boost and making the tank extremely slow, burning does damage overtime so it deals more than 1200dmg/sec), Isida can heal allies and receive scores for it besides having a good TTK, while Tesla has a Ball which he can connect to and raise his range by +5m.. Hurray! (unless you shoot more lightning balls which takes time, and usually you get killed before you could have 2 or 3 lightning balls, and no one is near them so you couldn't kill anyone) The augments for Tesla is also horrible since there are only status effect ones + Pulsar + Electroturret... That's it!

Finally someone actually understanding Tesla and here I thought I was going crazy when people say Tesla's is  broken in my battles when it wasn't. Teslas are only good/superior is when you have 2 or more status Tesla's is playing with each other or if you just wanna solo push, you might as well just use electroturret which takes more skill to use. 

 

@ZHU-HEAs for the topic for hammer, I think hammer is in a good spot right now l, it's not too overwhelming and it's not too weak either as stock. Even with some of the legendary augments (not all) with it I think it's balanced still.  The turrets that actually need buffs is stock twins and stock isida imo. And the turrets I think needs to be nerfed is railgun, striker, and shaft 

[DefkwargX 152]

On 10/2/2024 at 10:29 AM, Wry said:

the turret has no auto-aim like thunder and railgun

What?

[DOW 22]

On 10/2/2024 at 11:59 AM, Wry said:

As an experienced smoky player I think smoky is balanced and the effectiveness of it fully depends on the player's skill and playstyle which is fair. So if you missed a shot with smoky rather than saying its the turret's problem you could say that the turret has no auto-aim like thunder and railgun and require unique projectile mechanism that require certain angles to hit the target. For example, if you are moving fast and trying to shoot a non-moving tank your shot will go up and it wont hit the target even though you were aiming at it. So the trick here is to slightly brake before shooting so the pattern while you are moving (pressing W) is like this: S shoot S shoot S shoot, therefore you are controlling where the projectile will go and I'm talking about normal hulls ofc. Its not about smoky being weak its about other turrets/augments being OP. Personally I don't want the devs to buff smoky, I feel it will lose its identity, since smoky is known as a weak turret to use, I find it fun dominating battles by using it, because it is more challenging to win using smoky against the variety of OP turrets/augments.

You missed the point of my post. I started by telling that it requires a very experienced smokey player to defeat beginner players with augments on say striker/firebird, and for new players to buy any turret there's got to be some appeal to it so that even a new player can make decent use of it, but in contrast, its only being used by a dozen of leftover legendary players, so everyone ends up buying only striker, magnum, scorpion, even freeze, fire, and hammer to an extent while smokey gets sidelined. I have overtime seen how smokey went from being decent for normal players to being hard to use for experienced ones, especially for the hovering hulls. I use MK7+ smokey but end up rage quitting using it and using my firebird/railgun instead. Around 2015, I acquired 270k experience in 100 hours with smokey (being an experienced player), which is like killing 5 tanks/min. That was its power back then; it's unusable now.
P.S. I would still love to learn some new tips on using smoky from you.

Edited October 4, 2024 by DOW

[Frylock 1,617]

I feel like isida is very underwhelming to use and here is what I propose 

-isida damage stat increased from 1160 to 1200 

-increase critical damage from 300 to 600

Justifications on why I suggested this 

1. Isida is weak even if going against other tanks with no protections 

2. Isida is a single target turret and can't hit multiple targets like fire and freeze 

3. Over the years, isida has not had any offensive improvements well every other turret got better offensively

[Firestar220006 11]

I’ve avoided using Isida for these very reasons, and honestly target Isida users on the battlefield because they’re basically free kills. I agree it needs to be buffed somehow. I only recently started replaying, and I was shocked they removed its vampirism, except as an augment which of course nerfs other mechanics. I remember getting the “vampire” kit with the Mary paint when it was first released in the shop. I mean, you can’t do much with Isida except hide in the back of a base healing teammates who are hiding because they’re waiting for their repair supply to cooldown. It was never meant to be the best offense weapon, but it’s kinda useless rn.

[Firestar220006 11]

On 10/2/2024 at 8:16 AM, ZHU-HE said:

And Tesla ,you can kill the enemies in a strange angle,just above them ,on the high floor, with your balls.But what is the ability of Hammer? Low dps, difficult  to control, short range,you even cant kill a medium range turret smoky.

I use a titan hull and am almost always wrecked by hammer if it gets anywhere near me… Also, it has really janky angles you can fire at, unlike freeze and firebird, in addition to the shrapnel ricocheting. Sounds like you need to approach enemies differently or get a heavier hull, because hammer shouldn’t be that hard to handle. Point and shoot, account for recoil. 

[Frylock 1,617]

On 10/7/2024 at 6:20 AM, Firestar220006 said:

It was never meant to be the best offense weapon, but it’s kinda useless rn.

I think isida shouldn't be strong but I also think isida shouldn't also be this trash as stock as you've said.

My first isida kit I got back then was the stinger kit. One of my personal faves.

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by JAIMUX

[Firestar220006 11]

That was a fun kit. TBH, I don’t remember what half the paints did, but the kits were a really cool feature. Doesn’t really work with the way the garage is anymore, but hey. It a vibe when it lasted. I really enjoyed saving up for the new kits as a kid.

[Isshiki 24]

I have a suggestion for Tesla turret, but first I want to know if I am hallucinating or there is a glitch or bug or idk... how come Firebird Freeze Isida Tesla has 20m range, but Firebird and Freeze can hit about 21-22m, or at least I have had experience when I couldn't hit enemy with my Tesla and Firebird and Freeze could hit me, when we should have the same range?! So I want that to be adjusted first! (No... They didn't use high-pressure pump)

I want minor damage buff for Tesla that is very important and decisive... from 630 to 680 damage (Mk7+). This could be very important because right now If I use Booster drone the damage only goes up to 1417 damage, and If It was 680 damage, It could be 1530 damage, which means I would be able to kill medium hulls with 2 shots, and an armored enemy would be 4 shots instead of 5.

(Not as necessary, but critical damage could receive a damage buff as well, from 710 to 900, and nerf the critical damage chance from 15% to 10% or 8%)

[Wry 93]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:26 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

Yes, mobile has horizontal auto-aim as well as vertical yet that still didn't stop it from randomly phasing through enemies.

I see what you mean but to me missing a shot is all about me doing a mistake, so I see no problem in a turret being hard to control/use. The problem arise only when you compare it to the other OP turrets/augments in the game, meaning these turrets/augments have high effort/skill to value ratio, so less skill/effort it takes to get a huge value out of them.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 9:26 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

I didn't say that, but there is an issue somewhere.  It's been a common complaint about Smoky since the transition. It was shortly touched on in a Q&A they did a while back. Opex himself acknowledged the issue with increasing the projectile radius and this random comment.

 

I do think that HTML's physics is the biggest issue for the gameplay rn, so it could be because of it.

 

On 10/3/2024 at 8:42 AM, DefkwargX said:

What?

Try playing smoky Crus/paladin in MM and you will notice moments where your shots don't go where you want them to go, unlike other turrets. That is what i mean by auto-aim.

[Wry 93]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:48 PM, DOW said:

You missed the point of my post. I started by telling that it requires a very experienced smokey player to defeat beginner players with augments on say striker/firebird, and for new players to buy any turret there's got to be some appeal to it so that even a new player can make decent use of it, but in contrast, its only being used by a dozen of leftover legendary players, so everyone ends up buying only striker, magnum, scorpion, even freeze, fire, and hammer to an extent while smokey gets sidelined. I have overtime seen how smokey went from being decent for normal players to being hard to use for experienced ones, especially for the hovering hulls. I use MK7+ smokey but end up rage quitting using it and using my firebird/railgun instead. Around 2015, I acquired 270k experience in 100 hours with smokey (being an experienced player), which is like killing 5 tanks/min. That was its power back then; it's unusable now.

There is no competitive game that has every aspect of it's game equal in skill to value ratio, it is totally fine to have turrets that require more skill to get value from. Me being able to score 1000+ points in 12 min game using smoky wasp is a prove that smoky has potential to be lethal but it needs high-skill in exchange and i see no problem in that.
 

On 10/4/2024 at 7:48 PM, DOW said:

P.S. I would still love to learn some new tips on using smoky from you.

Based on my experience playing smoky I will say the following: 1 - Smoky requires certain playstyle to get the most out of it, which is being sneaky. Smoky works best with high mobile hulls like hornet/wasp, but smoky is easier to control with hornet and throwing Defender drone in the mix would be ideal. 2 -  Don't take 1v1s/face to face combat. Smoky is not good in close combat range because you will get outdamaged by whatever you playing against. You need to maintain that medium-range distance and avoid any close range combat, so if they chasing you, you run and damage them while doing so. 3 -  Being sneaky means the map environment/structure is important. Avoid open spaces and play around covers. Use your radar while doing so. Hornet's OD is so useful for this playstyle.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Wry

[Maf 32,300]

On 10/7/2024 at 9:03 PM, Isshiki said:

I couldn't hit enemy with my Tesla and Firebird and Freeze could hit me, when we should have the same range?! So I want that to be adjusted first!

This is likely because of latency. You think you're both at the same distance but actually the other player is closer to you and therefore able to reach you. You can test if the range is actually equal in controlled conditions in a private battle.

On 10/7/2024 at 9:03 PM, Isshiki said:

This could be very important because right now If I use Booster drone the damage only goes up to 1417 damage, and If It was 680 damage, It could be 1530 damage, which means I would be able to kill medium hulls with 2 shots, and an armored enemy would be 4 shots instead of 5.

Thresholds like this are very important in game balance. Booster drone is quite popular, so I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla damage is set precisely in a way that intentionally doesn't allow you to 2-shot medium hulls like that.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 10/2/2024 at 2:29 AM, Wry said:

 Personally I don't want the devs to buff smoky, I feel it will lose its identity, since smoky is known as a weak turret to use, I find it fun dominating battles by using it, because it is more challenging to win using smoky against the variety of OP turrets/augments.

I hope you enjoy the Smoky buffs.

[Wry 93]

On 10/10/2024 at 4:23 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

I hope you enjoy the Smoky buffs.

At least I fought back...

[NikmanGT 4,362]

On 9/21/2024 at 8:30 AM, Isshiki said:

 

On 9/28/2024 at 11:21 AM, ZHU-HE said:

 

On 10/7/2024 at 3:35 AM, JAIMUX said:

 

On 10/7/2024 at 10:33 PM, Isshiki said:

 

On 10/1/2024 at 10:07 PM, DOW said:

 

On 6/3/2024 at 9:55 PM, Philosopher said:

 

On 6/3/2024 at 9:49 PM, Philosopher said:

 

On 4/28/2024 at 4:03 PM, The_Voltage said:

 

On 9/4/2024 at 2:26 AM, AcnoIogia said:

 

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