category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

On 3/7/2022 at 8:43 PM, Me0w_XP said:

Damage in sniping mode decrease ⬇ (To balance the increase in recharge rate, decrease sniping damage as much as recharge rate is increased, maybe more.)

Alternativa made that rebalance change before but then.... they reverted it.

I still prefer to give it 1 second cooldown for arcade shots but completely strip off sniper mode.

[H_A_Z_A_R_D 3]

Hey guys I made a turret augment tier list if anyone is interested for any reason. 

https://tiermaker.com/create/turret-augments-alterations-tanki-1584064

 

[stat.padder 225]

@Warpriest

You keep regurgitating those same 3 screenshots over and over again, where you nitpicked matches against few annoying players (I mean more than average at least), edit: makes it hard to believe that you are actually struggling (usually anyone with >2.0 k/d is using something meta)

I do not play as much with vulcan as for example twins or smoky (320 vs 300 vs 71 hours), but I rarely have too many problems with vulcan protection. On top of this I use shooting speed regulator (bcz everyone uses status effects or stun striker), which means by your logic I am dead if I face anyone with protection. Well...that is simply not true. AP, EMP, stun are infinitely more annoying then protection against vulcan.

 

Protections are also crucial  if, for example, you are facing EMP gauss and you do not have EMP immunity for whatever reason. Protections also give sort of purpose to AP status effects otherwise why not simply use any other.

Edited March 14, 2022 by stat.padder
Kindly refrain from provoking other users

[Cleric 1,385]

12 hours ago, stat.padder said:

@Warpriest

You keep regurgitating those same 3 screenshots over and over again, where you nitpicked matches against few annoying players (I mean more than average at least), edit: makes it hard to believe that you are actually struggling (usually anyone with >2.0 k/d is using something meta)

 

Have it even once come in to your mind that perhaps I'm really performing that good, which the enemy team has to all switch to Vulcan protection just to counter me? And this happens frequent enough for me to post at least one of such screenshot per day (if I play this game that day)?

 

To stop you from keep "assuming" what I'm using, let me just tell you what my build is

Turret: Vulcan (Adrenaline)
Hull: Titan --> Crusader --> Paladin (starting to use in this Month) (Heat Immunity)
Drone: Crisis (some one argues it is not the best drone despite it is premium, yet it fits me)
Protection Modules: Railgun, Thunder, Gauss, Armadillo (never changed)

 

12 hours ago, stat.padder said:

I do not play as much with vulcan as for example twins or smoky (320 vs 300 vs 71 hours), but I rarely have too many problems with vulcan protection. On top of this I use shooting speed regulator (bcz everyone uses status effects or stun striker), which means by your logic I am dead if I face anyone with protection.

That because you are not good enough for the entire enemy team to switch protection modules just to counter you alone. Remember, Vulcan doesn't have any OP augments, you literally deal 50% less damage (or 25% less on average if you consider crits ignore protection) to almost EVERY enemies when they do so, and there is no way for you alone to get around it. 

Against an enemy with 50% damage reduction in 1 vs 1 IS a certain death. Of course this will be another story if we consider other factors, like other players get involved or I have much higher GS/health than my opponent. Yet, this is not how comparison should be conducted, right?

 

12 hours ago, stat.padder said:

AP, EMP, stun are infinitely more annoying then protection against vulcan.

Then what you should be asking is how the hell am I able to get 3.8+ K/D on average when

1. I never equipped any status immunity augments, other than Heat Immunity
2. Vulcan doesn't have all those fancy OP augments
3. A lot of people, especially in Legends, are using OP augments in MM
4. Before you accuse of of camping, no I didn't, or I won't be in top 1 in Siege.

 

12 hours ago, stat.padder said:

Protections are also crucial  if, for example, you are facing EMP gauss and you do not have EMP immunity for whatever reason. Protections also give sort of purpose to AP status effects otherwise why not simply use any other.

What are you trying to say here? Previously, you just mentioned how annoying status effects, and how insignificant protections is when compared to them. Now, you are trying to justify the importance of protection with the existence of status effects? Isn't that contradict to what you have suggested?

Edited March 15, 2022 by Warpriest

[Dopamine 2,161]

14 hours ago, stat.padder said:

 

2 hours ago, Warpriest said:

Posts moved

Please continue your discussion here.

[Cleric 1,385]

@stat.padder Let me keep you updated to prove it to you that how frequent it is when the entire team just decided to swap protection modules just to counter me alone.

This is the first game of today. 

 

BTW, this is my second game, just for comparison. So that you would understand, just because a player managed to get high K/D doesn't necessary means he is relying on OP augments or camping. This game is easy to play after all. This is what I'm capable when my team mates are not totally garbage and not every one on the enemy team switch to Vulcan protection (there are two in this game, but not a big deal).

 

And this is the forth game, also the last of today. In this game, half of the enemies switch to Vulcan protection just to deal with me. So far, there is 50% chance of me facing such situation while playing MM.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Warpriest

[stat.padder 225]

@Warpriest

It's such a shame that people do not let you deal ~1150 DPS so you could kill them in 2 to 3 seconds and pick those pesky protection where you have to cope with "only" ~670 DPS (or 575 if they also have armadillo).

When people put protection against my smoky my DPS drops to 353. Not too big of an issue I just put protection against them as well and all is fair.

 

When I play with vulcan I usually use crusaders or dictator's overdrive on guys with protection. 

However, all of this talk is irrelevant if you are forced to play (1v6,2v8 etc.). There is almost nothing that can help. You will get overpowered even against players with no protection.

 

And I really can't take seriously guy that advocates for removal of magnum from the game. That tells a lot more about you than you think.

Edited March 15, 2022 by stat.padder

[LambSauce 1,884]

Tanki Online is a perfectly balanced game with no exploits.

[Cleric 1,385]

4 hours ago, stat.padder said:

@Warpriest

It's such a shame that people do not let you deal ~1150 DPS so you could kill them in 2 to 3 seconds and pick those pesky protection where you have to cope with "only" ~670 DPS (or 575 if they also have armadillo).

Where does that 1150 DPS come from? According to the wiki, it should be 800 DPS, when no other factors are considered. Please, at least take a look at black and white materials instead of recalling from your fading memory when you are trying to state factual contents. 

Also, this is one of the characteristic of Vulcan isn't it? High DPS, low burst damage. Those XP/BP guys can take great advantage of using covers of playing peek a boo but you can't do the same with Vulcan.

 

4 hours ago, stat.padder said:

When people put protection against my smoky my DPS drops to 353. Not too big of an issue I just put protection against them as well and all is fair.

I thought you just mentioned how status effects are more annoying and effective. Using augments that applies EMP, AP and stun will do greater good isn't it (e.g. Your lovely AP Smoky)? Or are you already using those, which is direct counter to protections and you still failed to deal with protections? 

 

4 hours ago, stat.padder said:

When I play with vulcan I usually use crusaders or dictator's overdrive on guys with protection. 

So you are suggesting people to counter a passive with their ult? G

 

4 hours ago, stat.padder said:

And I really can't take seriously guy that advocates for removal of magnum from the game. That tells a lot more about you than you think.

Well that depends why do you think otherwise. 

 

10 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

Tanki Online is a perfectly balanced game with no exploits.

Well, it is. Why? Because the Devs decide what is balanced and what is not. They ARE the definition of balance.

If Devs decided this game is perfectly balanced as is, does anyone here have any say about?

Edited March 15, 2022 by Warpriest
Kindly refrain from provoking other users

[NikmanGT 4,362]

Kindly be respectful to one another, keep the debate professional instead of just lodging provocations.

[stat.padder 225]

@Warpriest

I already told I use cryo and emp smoky.

Wiki is de facto incorrect in a lot of things. Vulcan has critical with 2x dmg(one of the recent balance changes) which means stock does actually almost 880 DPS(873 to be exact). 

So let me be actually more precise this time since you are pretending to not understand...

-Adrenaline on average benefits +11%(10% for simplicity sake) unless you are camping constantly and taking no dmg.

-crisis gives extra 60% bonus dmg 

880+10%=968×2.6=2517 DPS, which is actually /2 bcz you are not going to face someone without BA that often. That is 1258 DPS

Protection can reduce 50% only portion that is not critical. That is 734 DPS, +armadillo would be even lower than that, but that is extremely rare.

 

Edit: if you do not want rely on ODs your fault, when I use crusader I often get between 1000 and 1600 score, so that's like 9-10 ODs which I use specifically for hard-to-destroy targets i.e. guys with protection. That is like easy 10 kills, quite relevant I dare say.

Edited March 15, 2022 by NikmanGT
Kindly refrain from provoking other users

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

11 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

@Warpriest

-Adrenaline on average benefits +11%(10% for simplicity sake) unless you are camping constantly and taking no dmg.

-crisis gives extra 60% bonus dmg 

880+10%=968×2.6=2517 DPS, which is actually /2 bcz you are not going to face someone without BA that often. That is 1258 DPS

That 2,517 DPS you're describing is an Adrenaline Vulcan with Crisis at 21% HP. Not exactly the best way to factor in the augment since that requires him to be near death. It's best to use half of the total Adrenaline value since being at around 50% HP the majority of the time is more realistic.

 

 

The bonus damage from Adrenaline adds to the Crisis bonus, to give x2.7 damage in total. I assume you're going by 2 critislits per second on average. In order for a Crisis Adrenaline Vulcan to deal 2,517 DPS with 2 crits per second, it needs to be on 21% HP. At full HP, it will be dealing 2,280 DPS. 

 

[Cleric 1,385]

52 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

@Warpriest

My fading memory haha? Look who is talking.

I already told I use cryo and emp smoky.

Wiki is de facto incorrect in a lot of things. Vulcan has critical with 2x dmg which means stock does actually 880 DPS. How about you learn math, sunshine?

So let me be actually more precise this time since you are pretending to not understand...

-Adrenaline on average benefits +11%(10% for simplicity sake) unless you are camping constantly and taking no dmg.

-crisis gives extra 60% bonus dmg 

880+10%=968×2.6=2517 DPS, which is actually /2 bcz you are not going to face someone with no BD that often. That is 1258 DPS

Protection can reduce 50% only portion that is not critical. 743 DPS, +armadillo would be even lower than that, but that is extremely rare.

Ah so you are talking about the best case here. Yet, if you have submitted proposals before (either for school or for work, since I don't even know how old you are), then you should know that best case scenarios worth ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in evaluations. You should at least compare the average case, and/or worst case.

Yet, you know the biggest mistake you have made in your calculation? You mixed best and average case scenarios in to one single case, essentially corrupting the result.

Best case raw damage = (
    800 [base damage]
    + 800  [extra crit damage]
        * 10.52% [crit chance]
)
x ( 1
    + 33% [Adrenaline]
    + 100% [Boosted damage]
    + 60% [Crisis, max. damage mode]
)

= 882 * (1 + 193%)

= 2584.26 DPS

This is the absolute best case scenario, although not practical at all.

 

 

Yet, best case only works when no one is targeting the Crisis user. No Crisis users will stupid enough to stay in max damage mode for long because you don't have boosted armor when in this mode, making you extremely vulnerable. Instead, we stay in max. armor mode for the longest, especially when in 1 vs 1, face to face fights.

So,

Average case raw damage = (
    800 [base damage]
    + 800  [extra crit damage]
        * 10.52% [crit chance]
)
x ( 1
    + 11% [Adrenaline, lets assume it is 11% on average as you have suggested]
)

= 882 * (1 + 11%)

= 979.02 DPS

Now that is when the enemy doesn't have boosted armor. Yet, as you have suggested, you seldom faced such case, so the average DPS should be 979.02 / 2 = 489.51 DPS. While do note that the Math here failed to show that we will have +190% damage reduction instead of the usual +100%.

 

 

Now what happen if we have Booster instead of Crisis instead?

Average case raw damage = (
    800 [base damage]
    + 800  [extra crit damage]
        * 10.52% [crit chance]
)
x ( 1
    + 11% [Adrenaline, again, lets assume it is 11% on average]
    + 100% [Boosted damage]
    + 30% [Booster, damage bonus]
)

= 882 * (1 + 141%)

= 2125.62 DPS

Again, because of enemy using boosted armor, the effective DPS should be 2125.62 / 2 = 1062.81 DPS.

 

Now what 1062.81 DPS means? It takes 3 sec of continuous firing to destroy a medium hull. During that, the Vulcan user cannot take cover and cannot miss. This is one of the so call best drones we are talking about here.

 

 

To be honest, previously you said the DPS is around 1150, and then you claimed it is 1258 after you have actually done some maths, although still being wrong. That's about 10% difference here. What do you think how your Math teacher will mark your answer if this is one of your exam questions? You can't even justify your own answer with your Math and you are trying to educate me on how to do primary school Math?  Pathetic

Edited March 15, 2022 by Warpriest

[stat.padder 225]

@Warpriest

Higher critical chance simply means even higher DPS. I thought it was 9.1%, so 10.25% is even better for you haha. The first number I gave were just estimate and of course I gave the lowest one possible otherwise you would accuse me of pumping those numbers up on purpose.

@TheCongoSpider

I am pretty sure that I correctly calculated for +10% which is when there is almost 70% hp left, plenty for most of the users.

Unless I am adding bonus for adrenaline bonus in a wrong way. I used adrenaline magnum(easy to demonstrate) and from my experience dmg worked this way: with 10% bonus(66.6% hp) my dmg with bd was 1500+10%=1650x2=3300, with booster that would be 1650x2.3=3795 the only problem is my booster is not fully upgraded so I can't check that yet.

 

Edit: If you struggling so hard with crisis, buy booster then hahaha. You want to remove protections (or completely remove option to change), which are one the most expensive things in the game. Players spent years or money to upgrade that and you want that deleted (or rendered almost useless if equipmant change is forbidden) for you own comfort.

Edited March 15, 2022 by stat.padder

[Cleric 1,385]

8 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

@Warpriest

Higher critical chance simply means even higher DPS. I thought it was 9.1%, so 10.25% is even better for you haha. The first number I gave were just estimate and of course I gave the lowest one possible otherwise you would accuse me of pumping those numbers up on purpose.

Now, does my Math enough to explain to you that the so call 1k+ DPS is not practical in actual fight, especially when face-to-face? Booster, on the other hand, can achieve that practically. Yet you lose some damage reduction (when compared with Crisis max. armor mode) and have a chance of drugs downtime, not exactly a good thing for me since I'm able to stay alive for very long.

 

To be honest, if Vulcan is as OP as you were suggesting, you should have already abusing it long ago isn't it? Instead, you chose Smoky. That shows at least in your opinion, Cryo/EMP Smoky is more effective than Vulcan.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Warpriest

[stat.padder 225]

13 minutes ago, Warpriest said:

To be honest, if Vulcan is as OP as you were suggesting, you should have already abusing it long ago isn't it? Instead, you chose Smoky. That shows at least in your opinion, Cryo/EMP Smoky is more effective than Vulcan.

This account was created around autocannon smoky before it was nerfed to ground. That augment was really good if not better than vulcan or practically any other turret before. Autocannon has been dead for a long time. The only reason I even play this account is because my main account does not have armadillo.

 

However, I still use my main account. R4ich

There I use mostly twins, then it is followed by railgun and striker. Feeze , vulcan and smoky have practically same number of hours. The most successful weapon in my garage, if exp/hour is parameter, is vulcan currently.

Edited March 15, 2022 by stat.padder

[Cleric 1,385]

3 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

This account was created around autocannon smoky before it was nerfed to ground. That augment was really good if not better than vulcan or practically any other turret before. Autocannon has been dead for a long time. The only reason I even play this account is because my main account does not have armadillo.

 

However, I still use my main account. R4ich

There I use mostly twins, then it is followed by railgun and striker. Feeze , vulcan and smoky have practically same number of hours. The most successful weapon in my garage, if exp/hour is parameter, is vulcan currently.

Unfortunately, XP in this game is a burden. There is no point to level up at all. In fact, when you do so too fast, your gear and cash flow cannot keep up.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

25 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

 the only problem is my booster is not fully upgraded

This muddies it. 

 

26 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

I am pretty sure that I correctly calculated for +10% which is when there is almost 70% hp left, plenty for most of the users.

Unless I am adding bonus for adrenaline bonus in a wrong way. 

You add the adrenaline bonus to whatever damage enhancers you have applied. The easiest way to make sense of it is thinking of it as units of damage enhancement. For every 100 units that gets added, it adds +1 to the damage multiplier. For example, let's take a 1,000 damage Railgun.

 

Suppose you start with 100 units which is x1 damage, Boosted Damage alone gives +50 units, which translates to +0.5 to the multiplier, which gives x1.5, 1,500 damage. Fully upgrading a drone increases Boosted Damage to +100 units, which is +1 to the multipler, which gives x2, 2,000 damage.

 

Booster, Crisis and Camper give additonal units of enhancement. Booster gives 30 additional units. The final damage will be:

100 (base damage) + 100 (Boosted Damage) + 30 (Booster's extra damage) = x2.3 damage, 2,300 damage. 

 

Adrenaline adds to this when further damage enhancement is applied. Suppose the Railgun is at 50% HP, which will give 15 units of damage enhancement:

100 (base damage) + 100 (Boosted Damage) + 30 (Booster's extra damage) + 15 (Adrenaline) = x2.45 damage, 2,450. 

 

 

 

If you are at 1 HP with Railgun and activate Boosted Damage,you won't deal 1,000 + 30% = 1,300 X 2 = 2,600. You deal 1,000 + 130% = 2,300. 

 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

1 hour ago, Warpriest said:

        * 10.52% [crit chance]

For what it's worth, the EN Wiki turret pages have not updated the proper critical chance values, so the average critical chance is different to what is shown there. 

[stat.padder 225]

3 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

 

If you are at 1 HP with Railgun and activate Boosted Damage,you won't deal 1,000 + 30% = 1,300 X 2 = 2,600. You deal 1,000 + 130% = 2,300. 

 

Now I am really disappointed when I found out this is true with my adrenaline gauss (I didn't use magnum because I do not have enough skill to be consistent yet, only 7 hours with it).

 

Wow...adrenaline augments are so bad. I guess the fact that I use defender and trickster prevented me from realising before. 

However, this is very useful because I might completely stop using adrenaline smoky (tbh I already rarely use it).

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

12 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

Now I am really disappointed when I found out this is true with my adrenaline gauss (I didn't use magnum because I do not have enough skill to be consistent yet, only 7 hours with it).

After the long range turret nerfs last year, Adrenaline Gauss and Magnum do not gain much on average when they're maxed. The barrier that gets broken for a maxed Adrenaline Gauss is being able to 2-shot unprotected medium hulls with the arcade shot at 20% HP. 

 

15 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

Wow...adrenaline augments are so bad. I guess the fact that I use defender and trickster prevented me from realising before. 

However, this is very useful because I might completely stop using adrenaline smoky (tbh I already rarely use it).

Which is why you have topics like this at times. 

 

 

They're not that bad. It is that they are unjustly affected by the freezing status and many other much more powerful and consistent augments get to roam freely. The damage boost isn't strong or consistent enough to warrant being disabled by freezing. 

 

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

Buff Adrenaline when?

[Dopamine 2,161]

27 minutes ago, FrozenRailgun said:

Buff Adrenaline when?

Any turret in particular? Because in my opinion, adrenaline is generally a very solid augment.

[Frylock 1,617]

17 minutes ago, frederik123456 said:

Any turret in particular? Because in my opinion, adrenaline is generally a very solid augment.

Not if freeze augments can keep disabling them. In my opinion the adrenaline types that do need a buff is the long range class. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

19 minutes ago, frederik123456 said:

Any turret in particular? Because in my opinion, adrenaline is generally a very solid augment.

unjustly nerfed by freezing augments.