category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[YANUKFIN 493]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:49 PM, frederik123456 said:

The thing is, once you get a really solid combo yourself (mk8/good aug from BP/good drone for example), the battles are actually quite enjoyable (not because you can easily beat the low GS players, rather because you can compete with the better ones. Now this is in fact achievable f2p, although I'm not going to argue the difficulty of doing so.

The difficulty in doing so makes your post quite lame.

It is difficult to nigh on impossible for F2P to compete with buyers, regardless how long they save for "1 augment, drone,"

Anything in the challenge via a battle pass means it's no longer worth having.   

[Dopamine 2,161]

25 minutes ago, YANUKFIN said:

makes your post quite lame

How so? I admitted myself it is not easy.

 

27 minutes ago, YANUKFIN said:

Anything in the challenge via a battle pass means it's no longer worth having.  

I disagree on this one, to name a few, Hammer stun is still good, freeze jammer too, fire emp aswell, smoky emp, isida vampire, healing shaft...

Not to say you don´t even need these premium augments to do well, Vulcan does great with any augment basically, freeze is great with adrenaline, striker has quite a few good augments, thunder sledgehammer, railgun scout, hyperspace,...

[yellowghetto 3,206]

Not sure if this mechanic has been applied to any other Augment or Turret but here is an idea I propose to balance the current most broken Augment in game.

 

Helios, as the description says, is meant to be a sniper version of Ricochet.

All snipers/long ranged weapons have some liability to them, where it be damage drop-off, lowered mobility, or risking self damage.

 

Opposite to RFM Shaft and Sledgehammer Rounds Thunder, here is an idea for a Helios nerf.

Instead of damage drop over distance, what about a damage increase over distance?

 

Standard damage (what it is right now) is dealt when the Turret's projectile has crossed over the "medium" range boundary and into long range. However, firing the plasma at too close of a range would result in the Turret to deal very weak damage, maybe -80% damage per projectile.

 

Helios needs more of a penalty besides just "weak recoil." My first idea of a Helios nerf was to remove crit, and preventing Ricochet to shoot until the full salvo is ready, but it would make it too similar to the other sniper's gameplay. I think this idea would be more unique.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

I have mixed feelings about this, Helios is more of an advantage for the player using or more difficult to deal with because of its ability to quickly deal damage or high projectile speed within medium and long range (not that long). Melee turrets and other rico augments at close range aren't that much different that helios is in comparison.

It's highly difficult to dodge any rico shot (irrespective of the augment) at close range. Hence, Helios plays a crucial role in wiping enemies and medium and comparatively large distances.

That's why increasing damage over distance will be the least thing people expect now to be implemented. Because the nerf isn't significant in comparison to the buff presented. It would be a cherry on top for Helios.

Medium and long ranges enemies wouldn't have any alternative to defend themselves, let alone introduce crisis, camper or even booster.

[Dopamine 2,161]

I am 100% certain this idea has been proposed to balance some other turret/augmnent.

Might work, whether it would be a blessing or a curse for Helios would probably depend on the actual stats set up.

Would be fun if it got implemented at least on test server, to get some feedback. 

[Maf 32,300]

Nah I think it definitely needs more bounces _/s

[NikmanGT 4,362]

3 minutes ago, Maf said:

Nah I think it definitely needs more bounces _/s

I just don't want Devs to read your Idea

[obay878 31]

dont people get it? helios is supposed to be overpowered, it wasent supposed to be balanced, its because its an augment buyers get.  or really lucky people with a 0.01 chance. if it is for some reason ever in a battlepass or obtainable somewhere. It would then be nerfed

[Maf 32,300]

23 minutes ago, obay878 said:

dont people get it? helios is supposed to be overpowered, it wasent supposed to be balanced, its because its an augment buyers get.  or really lucky people with a 0.01 chance. if it is for some reason ever in a battlepass or obtainable somewhere. It would then be nerfed

Helios was just a legendary tier reward from Ultra containers, right? That's much easier to get than something like Rico Pulsar, which cost around $500 to reach, yet was relatively average from the beginning, and even got further nerfed with a recent update. Your logic doesn't make sense in this case.

[Dopamine 2,161]

8 minutes ago, max6782 said:

And you get this "augment" is making people mad? including myself because its uncounterable. So what its for buyers such augment shouldnt exist.

If you equip EMP immu and 50% Rico prot it is near to useless.

[Dopamine 2,161]

34 minutes ago, max6782 said:

 

Between helios is that fast shooting thing i dont need emp immunity for this.

Yeah you're right, against helios you are dead in half a second anyway.

I know what I am talking because I own both augments and pulsar does not even come close to the power of Helios.

But of course you are free to have your own opinion.

 

[Frylock 1,617]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

Helios was just a legendary tier reward from Ultra containers, right?

Helios is still considered an exotic augment not legendary. 

[Dopamine 2,161]

56 minutes ago, max6782 said:

Yes sure lol. useless you make me laugh. And i dont have 50% 4 protections. You have no idea what it is to fight against this thing with low equipment garage.

Between helios is that fast shooting thing i dont need emp immunity for this.

To that point, twins EMP is also much stronger than pulsar, yet it is only a legendary tier in containers.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

22 minutes ago, Hiroyukisa said:

Helios is still considered an exotic augment not legendary. 

Helios lives upto its exotic mark. (Probably too much)

[YANUKFIN 493]

2 hours ago, Maf said:

Helios was just a legendary tier reward from Ultra containers, right? That's much easier to get than something like Rico Pulsar, which cost around $500 to reach, yet was relatively average from the beginning, and even got further nerfed with a recent update. Your logic doesn't make sense in this case.

 @obay878 post made perfect sense to me. This is the developers favourite ploy. Make it OP and the buyers will spend, when they have squeezed every dime they can out of it then put it out there for everyone, nerfed of course. As for logic, take that up with the developers, but don't expect any answers that rely on the truth being told.

Funny how you always seem to acquire the latest trashy gimmick when it is brought out.  

[LambSauce 1,884]

2 hours ago, Maf said:

Helios was just a legendary tier reward from Ultra containers, right? That's much easier to get than something like Rico Pulsar, which cost around $500 to reach, yet was relatively average from the beginning, and even got further nerfed with a recent update. Your logic doesn't make sense in this case.

Actually iirc Pulsar cost about $290 + all the special missions to obtain.

With Helios a buyer could spend a million bucks and still not be guaranteed to get it.

[Maf 32,300]

1 hour ago, YANUKFIN said:

This is the developers favourite ploy. Make it OP and the buyers will spend, when they have squeezed every dime they can out of it then put it out there for everyone, nerfed of course.

But this doesn't apply to every augment.

Take Twins Turbo Plasma Accelerators augment, for example. Literally the same concept as Helios — you have a short range turret that gets turned into long range via an exotic augment with a far greater range and fire rate, and reduced recoil. That augment is still "exotic", yet ever since the day it was released and even until now, it's a mediocre augment that seems fun at first glance, but greatly underperforms in battles, which is why you hardly see anyone using it.

Where's the "make it OP so buyers will spend" logic in this case?

[King.David 371]

Very good idea. However, I'm 95.43% sure the devs were gonna do something to this nature to 'balance it' even before knowing about this suggestion. The Helios buff was intentional and I think we all know why. 

[Fenrir 335]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

But this doesn't apply to every augment.

Take Twins Turbo Plasma Accelerators augment, for example. Literally the same concept as Helios — you have a short range turret that gets turned into long range via an exotic augment with a far greater range and fire rate, and reduced recoil. That augment is still "exotic", yet ever since the day it was released and even until now, it's a mediocre augment that seems fun at first glance, but greatly underperforms in battles, which is why you hardly see anyone using it.

Where's the "make it OP so buyers will spend" logic in this case?

Your argument would only be valid if the game "balance" and the changes made to it were consistent, which they are not. And even then... I see two more options - the augment was expected to be strong, yet it ended up as a flop - many things that come out, after all, are often overpowered/underpowered regardless of how lucrative for the game they may be, which gets addressed later on... or not. And/or, perhaps it was made to "trash up" the exotic tier and lower your chances of getting things that are actually useful. It's not only the case with Plasma Turbo Accelerators. Look at some of the Jamming augments, or especially the Paralyzing Mix on Firebird/Freeze. All of them were exotic at some point, yet they are mediocre or just a willful self-nerf in the Paralyzing Mix's case. It's anyone's guess since the devs are as transparent on their balancing choices as stained glass.
One more thing - Plasma Turbo Accelerators have a 70% DMG reduction. Helios has none of that. Even a child would know just by looking at Helios' stats that is is going to be overpowered. Perhaps PTA was just a testing ground to create Helios, since Twins already has two incredibly annoying augments (Magnetron and Cryotron) and giving a third one would have been too much. But what do I know.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

2 hours ago, LambSauce said:

Actually iirc Pulsar cost about $290 + all the special missions to obtain.

With Helios a buyer could spend a million bucks and still not be guaranteed to get it.

Yet, Helios performs 1000% times better than Pulsar. In my opinion, Pulsar should be introduced in the exotics before Helios and Helios would have been kept behind the Dark matter event, so that few people could obtain it. Presenting such an augment with no nerf to large playerbase now does not seem fruitful to me.

[Dopamine 2,161]

4 minutes ago, NikmanGT said:

Yet, Helios performs 1000% times better than Pulsar. In my opinion, Pulsar should be introduced in the exotics before Helios and Helios would have been kept behind the Dark matter event, so that few people could obtain it. Having such an augment with no nerf to large playerbase now does not seem fruitful to me.

The thing is, nobody wants pulsar in the state it is rn.

[NikmanGT 4,362]

1 minute ago, frederik123456 said:

The thing is, nobody wants pulsar in the state it is rn.

Exactly my point, hence the thing which is actually overpowered should be obtainable in much less rarity.

[YANUKFIN 493]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

But this doesn't apply to every augment.

Take Twins Turbo Plasma Accelerators augment, for example. Literally the same concept as Helios — you have a short range turret that gets turned into long range via an exotic augment with a far greater range and fire rate, and reduced recoil. That augment is still "exotic", yet ever since the day it was released and even until now, it's a mediocre augment that seems fun at first glance, but greatly underperforms in battles, which is why you hardly see anyone using it.

Where's the "make it OP so buyers will spend" logic in this case?

If it's not broken and doesn't dominate in battle then it's not OP. So it's exotic, (twins) that's down to the developers conning players with a average augment by putting it there and down to the buyers for not realising just how devious the developers are, although it should be quite obvious by now. 

I remember you testing out a new rico gimmick in a MM battle trying to show off, not the first time you have done this. Quite childish really as you were shooting at me trying to get my attention or you were trying to put me off, not sure which one it was but the end result was the same, I was not impressed in the slightest.

Funny how you always seem to have the latest gimmick on release.

 

46 minutes ago, Kazareen said:

But what do I know

A lot more than him.

[LambSauce 1,884]

24 minutes ago, NikmanGT said:

Yet, Helios performs 1000% times better than Pulsar. In my opinion, Pulsar should be introduced in the exotics before Helios and Helios would have been kept behind the Dark matter event, so that few people could obtain it. Presenting such an augment with no nerf to large playerbase now does not seem fruitful to me.

What? Helios shouldn’t have been in the Dark Matter mini-game because then we would have had a load of buyers running around with it immediately after. Devs were smart to put the seemingly-OP-but-actually-mediocre Pulsar in that mini-game.

[Maf 32,300]

3 hours ago, YANUKFIN said:

This is the developers favourite ploy. Make it OP and the buyers will spend, when they have squeezed every dime they can out of it then put it out there for everyone, nerfed of course.

1 hour ago, YANUKFIN said:

that's down to the developers conning players with a average augment by putting it there and down to the buyers for not realising just how devious the developers are

So let me summarise your points:

If developers put a balanced augment into exotic container tier, they're conning players by making them spend money, thinking it's OP.
If developers put an overpowered augment into exotic container tier, they're conning players by ruining game balance and making buyers OP.

Is that right? 

1 hour ago, YANUKFIN said:

Funny how you always seem to have the latest gimmick on release.

I'm not sure where you got the "always" part. I bought one mega bundle with the Blaster shot effect and 290 ultra containers, and I got Helios from the containers. It's the only big bundle I ever bought, and I spent 7 months saving up tankoins for it.

You won't see me using Scorpion or DC/RT skins anytime soon.