Literally Unplayable: New RFM Shaft-Hornet Meta

[Azonyx 124]

It seems there was a ninja "BaLaNcE" patch last Thursday which I only became painfully aware of when slugging it out in MM battles today. I noticed an unnaturally high number of Shafts out and about, mostly with RFM, Hornet, and Defender / Booster. Huh, must be just MMS shenanigans again, I thought.

Boy, was I wrong. Not only did it seem to fire much faster than before, they seemed to be taking sniped shots like they were playing with LCs! Even with my EMP Gauss / Hornet OD / Defender, these guys effectively spawnlocked me the whole game. They deleted me in the blink of an eye if I got within 60m of them, and sniped me dead before I could even strip their supplies with the charged shot! Even then, I'm still dead because my Hornet is eating 3300 unmitigated damage no matter what because of their OD. The only way I could fight back was to play stealthy and catch them by surprise... that is, if I could get out of my base before they locked it down with their absurdly fast-charging Hornet ODs. Luckily they had no EMP protection so I could at least slow them down, but if they did, they would virtually be little Godmode_ONs.

I thought Vulcan and Gauss was bad, but this is a whole 'nother world of evil. This new meta is almost perfectly capable of murdering anybody at any range, only limited by how many tanks it engages with at once. For the love of god, something ought to be done with either RFM or Hornet OD at the very least!

Edited June 25, 2020 by Azonyx

[XxStriker 519]

New? RFM has always been ridiculous

[TheCongoSpider 8,952]

Vulcan got nerfed, and Shaft got buffed. And what do we see? Shafts on Hornet. This is the last piece of evidence that is needed for a Hornet OD nerf. 

 

I don't know what they are trying to achieve with this Shaft buff, but right now, RFM is an upgraded version of itself when it was first introduced. Funny how we just keep going in circles. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by TheCongoSpider

[Azonyx 124]

10 minutes ago, XxStriker said:

New? RFM has always been ridiculous

Yes, it has been a pain for a while but at least there is a significant damage penalty to sniping damage and a longer window (1.5s) to unload all 3 shots. That meant they moved more predictably, having to get close before they wreaked havoc (almost nobody used sniping mode on RFM before this patch).

But now Shaft has received a base 40% recharge buff, and RFM's major weaknesses have been removed. Now they can run to and fro, unload at least 2.1k into you in ~0.5s, AND have a faster recharge, plus snipe you if you get away.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Azonyx

[Azonyx 124]

8 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

I don't know what they are trying to achieve with this Shaft buff, but right now, RFM is an upgraded version of itself when it was first introduced. Funny how we just keep going in circles. 

This patch update dropped at the same time as the discount weekend. If you put two and two together, it's not hard to see that they are pushing a new meta for people to buy into, should they not have it yet. The only shred of subtlety that can be gleaned here is that there was no front page banner announcing the update.

[yasgfgfffgf 282]

52 minutes ago, Azonyx said:

It seems there was a ninja "BaLaNcE" patch last Thursday which I only became painfully aware of when slugging it out in MM battles today. I noticed an unnaturally high number of Shafts out and about, mostly with RFM, Hornet, and Defender / Booster. Huh, must be just MMS shenanigans again, I thought.

Boy, was I wrong. Not only did it seem to fire much faster than before, they seemed to be taking sniped shots like they were playing with LCs! Even with my EMP Gauss / Hornet OD / Defender, these guys effectively spawnlocked me the whole game. They deleted me in the blink of an eye if I got within 60m of them, and sniped me dead before I could even strip their supplies with the charged shot! Even then, I'm still dead because my Hornet is eating 3300 unmitigated damage no matter what because of their OD. The only way I could fight back was to play stealthy and catch them by surprise... that is, if I could get out of my base before they locked it down with their absurdly fast-charging Hornet ODs. Luckily they had no EMP protection so I could at least slow them down, but if they did, they would virtually be little Godmode_ONs.

I thought Vulcan and Gauss was bad, but this is a whole 'nother world of evil. This new meta is almost perfectly capable of murdering anybody at any range, only limited by how many tanks it engages with at once. For the love of god, something ought to be done with either RFM or Hornet OD at the very least!

i always use schaft and hornet without augments so ...

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

I hate the fact they keep making balance changes look like their not important at all when they really are.

 

They make useless things like chat readability and status effects seem like the most important change in TO history, but the harsh nerf hunter got, the nerf on Vulcan, the buff to shaft and RFM, and moving all adrenaline alts to be obtainable by spending crystals are only found in the patch notes.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

1 hour ago, Azonyx said:

For the love of god, something ought to be done with either RFM or Hornet OD at the very least!

I'd rather nerf RFM. That crap can deal even more DPS than all other turrets, (more than 2000 damage per second) and even beating Incendiary Mix Firebird. Only Duplet can beat that DPS though.

And this is why I don't use RFM. I'd rather use Light/Heavy Capacitor or SBE + Brutus.

For Hornet, I would nerf it that it cannot completely penetrate through modules. Basically if I face a dude using 50% Eagle and me popping Radar, it would ignore by 35% additively. Meaning he/she will still have 15% Shaft defence to avoid getting OHKO-ed. And yeah, it should not stack with Booster Drone effect.

Edited June 21, 2020 by FrozenRailgun

[TheCongoSpider 8,952]

Shaft actually got overbuffed. It's not a 40% increase in the recovery rate. It's a 66% increase. 

[mjmj5558 2,346]

Just now, TheCongoSpider said:

Shaft actually got overbuffed. It's not a 40% increase in the recovery rate. It's a 66% increase. 

I like this shaft buff 

[F41TH 483]

4 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Vulcan got nerfed, and Shaft got buffed. And what do we see? Shafts on Hornet. This is the last piece of evidence that is needed for a Hornet OD nerf. 

 

I don't know what they are trying to achieve with this Shaft buff, but right now, RFM is an upgraded version of itself when it was first introduced. Funny how we just keep going in circles. 

This is the post I needed.

[F41TH 483]

3 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

I'd rather nerf RFM. That crap can deal even more DPS than all other turrets, (more than 2000 damage per second) and even beating Incendiary Mix Firebird. Only Duplet can beat that DPS though.

And this is why I don't use RFM. I'd rather use Light/Heavy Capacitor or SBE + Brutus.

For Hornet, I would nerf it that it cannot completely penetrate through modules. Basically if I face a dude using 50% Eagle and me popping Radar, it would ignore by 35% additively. Meaning he/she will still have 15% Shaft defence to avoid getting OHKO-ed. And yeah, it should not stack with Booster Drone effect.

I have been away for so long that I missed these beautiful posts.

Edited June 21, 2020 by F41TH

[F41TH 483]

Well, for all I can say is that remove 40% and make it 20% because having 40% removes the meaning to make an LC augment.

Nerf Hornets OD.

For RFM, decrease rate of fire and add reload penalty after sniping.

[TheCongoSpider 8,952]

5 minutes ago, F41TH said:

Well, for all I can say is that remove 40% and make it 20% because having 40% removes the meaning to make an LC augment.

LC still has meaning. It also benefits from the increased recovery rate. 

6 minutes ago, F41TH said:

For RFM, decrease rate of fire and add reload penalty after sniping.

It already has a reload penalty after sniping. You mean increase it? 

[F41TH 483]

1 minute ago, TheCongoSpider said:

LC still has meaning. It also benefits from the increased recovery rate. 

Maybe true. What my point was that LC is for stock Shaft to reload faster. Now that stock Shaft reloads fast enough people might even go with RFM because (1)it is OP rn, (2)we know it won't be fixed. LC might still be fun as reload should be stupidly fast rn ig.

3 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

It already has a reload penalty after sniping. You mean increase it? 

Nah. I meant make =0.5 to =0.7/0.8 in Arcade mode. Doing this means you still will have some time before you're a pizza. Or we can slightly decrease damage in arcade mode whilst keeping only a reload penalty in sniping with normal (high) damage.

[TheCongoSpider 8,952]

Just now, F41TH said:

Maybe true. What my point was that LC is for stock Shaft to reload faster. Now that stock Shaft reloads fast enough people might even go with RFM because (1)it is OP rn, (2)we know it won't be fixed. LC might still be fun as reload should be stupidly fast rn ig.

I see what you mean. But I'd say LC benefits the most from the recovery rate buff. 

19 minutes ago, F41TH said:

Nah. I meant make =0.5 to =0.7/0.8 in Arcade mode. Doing this means you still will have some time before you're a pizza. Or we can slightly decrease damage in arcade mode whilst keeping only a reload penalty in sniping with normal (high) damage.

That's the firing rate. You said to add a reload penalty after sniping. There is already a reload penalty after sniping. Do you mean to increase the reload penalty as well as nerfing the arcade shots?

[F41TH 483]

3 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

That's the firing rate. You said to add a reload penalty after sniping. There is already a reload penalty after sniping. Do you mean to increase the reload penalty as well as nerfing the arcade shots?

I'll just lay it all down. I meant a rework in the whole augment.

Rapid-fire mode:

Gives increased arcade mode firing rate for a decrease of damage in arcade mode and has a higher target locking time and reload time in sniping mode as a drawback.

[Tidebreaker 1,669]

5 hours ago, Azonyx said:

Luckily they had no EMP protection so I could at least slow them down, but if they did, they would virtually be little Godmode_ONs.

Word of advice: if you ever see shaft_marksman, run. He has EMP immunity, maxed Booster, and 50% Gauss protection.

4 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Shaft actually got overbuffed. It's not a 40% increase in the recovery rate. It's a 66% increase. 

After some thinking, they were probably referring to a 40% decrease in reload time. Makes sense, no?

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

LC still has meaning. It also benefits from the increased recovery rate. 

It does, but honestly RFM just completely overshadows every other Shaft alt at this point in time. I cannot deny that.

1 hour ago, F41TH said:

Maybe true. What my point was that LC is for stock Shaft to reload faster. Now that stock Shaft reloads fast enough people might even go with RFM because (1)it is OP rn, (2)we know it won't be fixed. LC might still be fun as reload should be stupidly fast rn ig.

It's 3 seconds now - not stupidly fast, but not slow, either. 2.5 or even 2 would be perfect for it.

58 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

I see what you mean. But I'd say LC benefits the most from the recovery rate buff. 

To an extent, HCs did, too...

[sensei_tanker 3,098]

Back in 2013, I used to always laugh at shaft-hornet players because it was such a dumb combo, pairing shaft with a light hull. In 2020, things have changed and now shaft-hornet is OP. Though, I still do not think hornet OD is OP. Just kill the hornet. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by sensei_tanker

[F41TH 483]

2 minutes ago, sensei_tanker said:

Back in 2013, I used to always laugh at shaft-hornet players because it was such a dumb combo, pairing shaft with a light hull. In 2020, things have changed and now shaft-hornet is OP. Though, I still do not think hornet OD is OP. Just kill the hornet. 

Same. Hornet's aren't much of a bother. But people feel it's OP.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

43 minutes ago, F41TH said:

Same. Hornet's aren't much of a bother. But people feel it's OP.

Would you like to be spawn camped by a bunch of overdriven hornets? Didn't think so.

[sensei_tanker 3,098]

1 hour ago, DieselPlatinum said:

Would you like to be spawn camped by a bunch of overdriven hornets? Didn't think so.

 If you just spawn into a mob of players with any hull's OD, you will be dead. People dislike Hornet's OD because they feel as though they have been unfairly killed, especially given your double armor and 50% module gets nullified, leaving you completely vulnerable to a x2 power attack. Literally Hornet OD is just a radar (not that powerful) and an unchallenged double power. That is all. Just imagine when you need smart cooldowns after spamming drugs, and you are completely vulnerable to an enemy's double power since you can't counterdrug. It's literally the same thing.

 

Viking OD will also completely devastate your tank's defenses, regardless of paint and module. If you spawned in a horde of Viking ODs, you would be dead as well.  Same goes to Dictator OD, where only 1 Dictator is needed to give the entire enemy team all drugs, an instant heal, and a minefield. Titan OD in your base also means you are toast. 

 

I want to also point out that Hornet is the weakest hull in the game if ODs aren't considered. Weakest defense, and less speed than wasp means there are a lot of better alternatives. The only reasonable nerf to Hornet OD is to slow down its charge up rate and not give the entire enemy team radar. 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by sensei_tanker

[F41TH 483]

2 hours ago, DieselPlatinum said:

Would you like to be spawn camped by a bunch of overdriven hornets? Didn't think so.

As a matter of fact I do get spawned and completely rekt them.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

1 hour ago, sensei_tanker said:

1) If you just spawn into a mob of players with any hull's OD, you will be dead. People dislike Hornet's OD because they feel as though they have been unfairly killed, especially given your double armor and 50% module gets nullified, leaving you completely vulnerable to a x2 power attack. Literally Hornet OD is just a radar (not that powerful) and an unchallenged double power. That is all. Just imagine when you need smart cooldowns after spamming drugs, and you are completely vulnerable to an enemy's double power since you can't counterdrug. It's literally the same thing.

 

2) Viking OD will also completely devastate your tank's defenses, regardless of paint and module. If you spawned in a horde of Viking ODs, you would be dead as well.  Same goes to Dictator OD, where only 1 Dictator is needed to give the entire enemy team all drugs, an instant heal, and a minefield. Titan OD in your base also means you are toast. 

 

3) I want to also point out that Hornet is the weakest hull in the game if ODs aren't considered. Weakest defense, and less speed than wasp means there are a lot of better alternatives.

4) The only reasonable nerf to Hornet OD is to slow down its charge up rate and not give the entire enemy team radar. 

 

1) if the OD was given to a different hull like dictator like it was originally thought, would you still be defending it?

2) hornets OD is almost 3x as long as Vikings OD which means it can get in a shot and hide and repeat while Viking has to stay exposed for 7 seconds to maximize its OD. Also hornets OD recharges almost 2x as quickly as Viking OD.

Dictator just has supplies. All the hulls you mentioned can be countered by hornet OD.

3) maybe but you can easily bypass that weakness with drones.

4) or just remove its ability to ignore spawn protection and replace its complete ignore of everything with just a 75% ignore.

[coconuttree 519]

1 minute ago, F41TH said:

As a matter of fact I do get spawned and completely rekt them.

What is your highest rank? If it is WO, then you won't be seeing defender/booster drone. Even I see them very rarely but I can tell you that that's what makes the difference. At high ranks, all the meta users have one of these 2 drones making them very difficult to kill(especially defender).