valid Eliminate isida crit shots for the jugg.

[wolverine848 13,097]

10 hours ago, Cor7y said:

You've clearly never played a game of Sandbox TJR where all the enemy Juggernaut does is camp in his base the entire game with an Isida or two healing him?

Of course I have.  That's 1/3 of the team doing nothing but healing. 1/2 not attacking the other JUG.

Change your strategy.

[wolverine848 13,097]

11 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

There could be some reduction in the crit of Isida, as to not heal the Juggernaut in the matter of time. With support nanobots, an experienced healer can make the Jugg survive a whole battle. Even against Viking ODs.

No it can't.  The viking does WAY more damage with OD than a viking nan-bot could heal.  OR... the viking with OD will waste the Isida first and still have plenty of OD left to take out the JUGG.

[DaringDeer 656]

I have no issue with shafts or isidas healing jugs though I would rather they did not.  They are just an added obstacle.

I love TJR but the problem with the mode is that the best strategy to win is for jug to camp.  When both jugs camp and defense sets up around them to the point where killing them is near impossible, it makes the game less dynamic and fun.  I think the rules of the game should be modified to encourage players to keep the game dynamic rather than encouraging 2 camping, inaccessible jugs.   

The addition of the fast lock-on of rockets I think was a step in the wrong direction.  

[NikmanGT 4,375]

7 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

No it can't.  The viking does WAY more damage with OD than a viking nan-bot could heal.  OR... the viking with OD will waste the Isida first and still have plenty of OD left to take out the JUGG.

It does not happen everytime, there is not only Jugg or the healer present in the whole team, there are other enemy members as well. Sometimes they will deal you heavy damage while you're on the verge of using the OD and then Jugg's 1 shot gets you killed. And in the whole duration, the Jugg also shoots at you, taking out your half health per shot. Thus, it is not a guaranteed kill if you are using Viking's Overdrive.

[TheCongoSpider 8,956]

The situation isn't as black and white as it seems to be said in this thread. There are a huge number of factors to whether or not your team wins or loses if healers are present and this is very frustrating when I'm trying to keep Juggernauts alive. In a near balanced battle, I would be able to do it as my team would be strong enough to defend themselves or the base from attackers and the enemy can do the same until one side slips up. Instead, I have the scenario where I look around, see half or more of my team with no drones and undergraded equipment, not turning their turrets while the enemy team seems stacked with players that are competent. It happens both ways but usually it happens against me. 

 

Many of these factors are uncontrollable or unconterable. Railguns, Hammers and Smokies altogether are quite common in Juggernaut. If you're not aware, mobile players take considerably increased impact force from Smokies and significantly increased impact force from Hammer and Railgun. A single Hammer shot is enough to flip me if I am a Juggernaut, and if I am the only Ayer competent enough to win the game for my team, then I am at a massive disadvantage because surprise surprise, Terminator is a Railgun as well. 

 

Here are 7 videos I recorded in a playlist. 3 of them are with Support Nanobots using the Miner and Booster drones. The other 4 are with Healing Emitters using the Assault and Mechanic drones. I would like you to note the equipment of the players in the battle and the GS at the end. Look at how many of them are droneless or unmaxed. All of these and many other factors decide the end result of the battle. 

 

 

8 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

No it can't.  The viking does WAY more damage with OD than a viking nan-bot could heal.  OR... the viking with OD will waste the Isida first and still have plenty of OD left to take out the JUGG.

The Juggernaut can survive during the healing if they have protection against the turret. How easy it is for a Juggernaut to survive against a Viking OD depends on the turret and the augment equipped. There is a huge difference between Electromagnetic Accelerator Scout and the other Railgun augments with the Overdrive, as well as a huge difference between Blunderbuss and the other Hammer augments. 

 

How well they survive also depends on how aware they are of their surroundings. Many of them could have survived the onslaught if they saw the Viking coming beforehand. Dealing with oblivious Juggernauts is the most frustrating. 

[Abellia 504]

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

Would you care to explain how you came to that conclusion?

Well, Diesel isn't wrong here, but I wouldn't say that the group abuse is a giant problem here. The reason he's right is that ultimately, there is very little reward for healing a juggernaut with Isida, most of the time. You will win, but your score will tank because of how score from healing is generated. This means that most solo players won't bother healing (I know you're the exception, but I rarely see competent isida healers in TJR) and that there is much more incentive for groups to do it - where they play to end matches as quickly and safely as possible, which can include a healer to support the juggernaut. This is compounded as well with the aspect of coordination - if the few solo players who want to heal realize there is a competent juggernaut, they have to risk swapping whereas a player in a group will know there is a high chance of a competent juggernaut and will not hesitate to begin a match as a healer. 

It's just a complicated issue, as there are several other pieces of equipment that have increased/decreased effectiveness in specific modes as well. I would rather not touch something that doesn't necessarily need to change right now, as any solutions to it will either be needlessly specific and complicated or have devastating impacts for the entire gamemode.

With that being said, I'll propose one of said solutions in response to Deer: 

20 hours ago, DaringDeer said:

I have no issue with shafts or isidas healing jugs though I would rather they did not.  They are just an added obstacle.

I love TJR but the problem with the mode is that the best strategy to win is for jug to camp.  When both jugs camp and defense sets up around them to the point where killing them is near impossible, it makes the game less dynamic and fun.  I think the rules of the game should be modified to encourage players to keep the game dynamic rather than encouraging 2 camping, inaccessible jugs.   

The addition of the fast lock-on of rockets I think was a step in the wrong direction.  

Would you want the potency of the Juggernaut to depend on active gameplay? Have their stats gradually go down in between overdrive activations, and have them go down faster in between each one. This would force them to continuously get kills to feed their overdrives to stay powerful, as well as add some strategy to the overdrive use. Alternatively, you could simply decrease their overall power over time and have it restore a small amount with each kill.

Or have stats for juggernauts go down as long as the same two juggernauts are alive. For example, if Juggernaut A and B have both been alive for 5 minutes, their stats will be cut in half everywhere - max health, damage, speed, weight. But if Juggernaut B dies, the new Juggernaut B and Juggernaut A will both be at full power again.  

Edited April 5, 2022 by Abellia

[DaringDeer 656]

3 hours ago, Abellia said:

Would you want the potency of the Juggernaut to depend on active gameplay? Have their stats gradually go down in between overdrive activations, and have them go down faster in between each one. This would force them to continuously get kills to feed their overdrives to stay powerful, as well as add some strategy to the overdrive use. Alternatively, you could simply decrease their overall power over time and have it restore a small amount with each kill.

Or have stats for juggernauts go down as long as the same two juggernauts are alive. For example, if Juggernaut A and B have both been alive for 5 minutes, their stats will be cut in half everywhere - max health, damage, speed, weight. But if Juggernaut B dies, the new Juggernaut B and Juggernaut A will both be at full power again.  

There was another thread a couple weeks ago about TJR mode and I had put some ideas in there.  The problem is people all have their own agendas and when they get to be jug they aren't necessarily playing to win the battle.  Some people may hide completely or cautiously camp or midfield or push forward aggressively or run off the map and kill themselves.  I'm not sure what levers you pull to get people to make the game mode consistently active and interesting.

I do think it is more fun when jugs are dying and different people are getting to be jug so that should be encouraged.  Put every jug on a 90 second death timer and one OD available at spawn but no OD recharge.  Let them try to reek as much havoc as possible.  Whether they are killed or run out of time, the other team gets a point.  When jug kills a non-jug, they get 5 seconds added to death timer.  If they kill the jug, they get 30 seconds added.  Something like that forces the jug to participate in the battle and expose themselves or they waste away. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

22 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

It does not happen everytime, there is not only Jugg or the healer present in the whole team, there are other enemy members as well. Sometimes they will deal you heavy damage while you're on the verge of using the OD and then Jugg's 1 shot gets you killed. And in the whole duration, the Jugg also shoots at you, taking out your half health per shot. Thus, it is not a guaranteed kill if you are using Viking's Overdrive.

Well it's not just the 1 viking against the JUG and the healer though is it?

[NikmanGT 4,375]

1 hour ago, wolverine848 said:

Well it's not just the 1 viking against the JUG and the healer though is it?

Doesn't matter, each time situation is different, it's not as if all the vikings go and raid at the same time, each viking when its ODs gets recharged tries to attack the Jugg only when it sees a clear path to the base, not when the enemy team is shooting at him, because the enemy jugg along with the further enemy attacks can wipe out the viking at any time. But the healer is present with the Jugg through all the times (when camping ofc.) An experienced healer can make the jugg survive multiple Viking ODs.

[YANUKFIN 493]

If the jug is a smart competent player that's half the battle won. I agree with diesel, the outcome of the battle depends a lot on various factors ranging from augments, G/S, groups, the team working together, and the most important one, a good jug player who knows the mode very well and is well above average as a jug player.

If you have 3 players working together to take out the enemy jug, then they will get through any defence eventually. This kind of team work is seldom seen in most jug battles and applies for any mode. As always the core problem, regardless of what mode you play are the developers, they set the parameters for all modes and until they start and introduce "BALANCE" in TO then jug modes along with every other mode will usually be a blow out for many players. 

Funny how it always comes down to 1 common denominator, THE DEVELOPERS.  

  

[Dr.Isida 526]

Absolutely not.

Hornet and dictator’s OD takes a lot more time than you think to recharge! Clearly you haven’t been in a match where your Jug lacks good equipment (especially protections) and you have to heal them while going against several Viking ODs 

Isida crits are literally just counters to Freeze/Firebird crits, Cyclone Strikers, Viking OD, and the list just goes on and on… On top of that, you must use your OD wisely, using it at the wrong time will always get you and your Juggernaut killed

[Abellia 504]

On 4/5/2022 at 5:54 PM, DaringDeer said:

 

I do think it is more fun when jugs are dying and different people are getting to be jug so that should be encouraged.  Put every jug on a 90 second death timer and one OD available at spawn but no OD recharge.  Let them try to reek as much havoc as possible.  Whether they are killed or run out of time, the other team gets a point.  When jug kills a non-jug, they get 5 seconds added to death timer.  If they kill the jug, they get 30 seconds added.  Something like that forces the jug to participate in the battle and expose themselves or they waste away. 

Agreed. I'm on board with this solution, it was definitely more thoughout than mine - this prevents gameplay from getting stale for the juggernauts if they fail to keep the game rolling, like my solution would have happen.