Fix the tanks that fly

[Jeers4U 665]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:07 PM, NikmanGT said:

Nobody knows the pattern and frequency of questions that are taken and answered by Developers, but it's a fact that the questions are read and answered when necessary.

That's my point.

They pick and choose what questions they want to answer and not all the questions--especially the tough questions that might make them look bad.

Or greedy. Or whatever.

I get it. It's a business. But answering questions about skins and paints doesn't address the questions some of us have repeatedly asked for years.

 

(Please don't ask me what those questions are. If you are unsure, just go through the thread and see the ones that are repeatedly asked. Those are the questions that the developers have not given an answer to. Thus, there is no 'responding properly'.)

[Son_Goku 514]

On 7/9/2023 at 8:53 AM, Assasin-TO said:

This paragraph of yours leads us to one obvious question: Where do you draw the line that considers selfing as cheating but not camping? Using our fellow tanker's definition, both of them are considered as cheating.

To me cheating contains the use of scripts, exploits or the use of mechanics in a way they're not intented to be used. When the devs decided to add a way for a tank to destroy itself, I'm pretty sure it was intended to be used when people are flipped or whatever so they could come back to playing. However, people self when they're low life and in a good situation to do it, just to regain full life and to not give their opponent any advantage; this I would say is using selfing in a way it was not intended to, so I would consider it as cheating.

If you are just standing behind a house and waiting for people to push you, you are not using any scripts to achieve it, it's not an exploit and standing behind this house is not an unintended mechanic. If it was, the house wouldn't be there. So you're not cheating when you're camping.

And if you keep dying over and over again to someone who is waiting for you in cover because you're always trying the same thing to finally kill them, I would say that it simply is a skill issue. The camper is doing nothing wrong, but you are.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Son_Goku

[Positive 1,137]

In no game camping is ever considered cheating. Just sad and boring.

[DefkwargX 152]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:08 AM, Son_Goku said:

To me cheating contains the use of scripts, exploits or the use of mecahnics in a way they're not intented to be used. When the devs decided to add a way for a tank to destroy itself, I'm pretty sure it was intended to be used when people are flipped or whatever so they could come back to playing. However, people self when they're low life and in a good situation to do it, just to regain full life and to not give their opponent any advantage; this I would say is using selfing in a way it was not intended to, so I would consider it as cheating.

If you are just standing behind a house and waiting for people to push you, you are not using any scripts to do it, it's not an exploit and standing behind a house is not an unintended mechanic. If it was, the house wouldn't be there. So you're not cheating when you're camping.

And if you keep dying over and over again to someone who is waiting for you in cover because you're always trying the same thing to finally kill them, I would say that it simply is a skill issue. The camper is doing nothing wrong, but you are.

Keep the realm of subjectivity out of this matter. It doesn't matter how you define 'cheating', your opinion is irrelevant in this matter. What matters is the objective definition of 'cheating', as someone just provided. We can deduce whether or not something is considered as 'cheating' by deducing whether or not that action fits the definition of 'cheating'. Moreover, it might be possible that selfing was added to the game also to regain one's health back because as we know, many players used to self when a gold box took around one minute to drop long ago. We see a similar behaviour in esports. Likewise, it is possible that camping is an unintended mechanic that is still practiced. It might be possible that the devs wanted this game to be a lively one and not consisting of blokes who sit their fat bums waiting for their opponents to make the 1st move. These are mere suppositions, as you might know and this is why, we have to look at facts to judge the nature of this act. If you look at the definition of 'cheating', camping would indeed be considered as cheating.

 

 

On 7/10/2023 at 5:05 AM, Positive said:

In no game camping is ever considered cheating. Just sad and boring.

Cheating has many meanings, and the one that you mean, is probably 'to violate rules dishonestly' (merriam-webster) but the one that I mean is the one that spy gave, which by that definition, makes camping an act of cheating. Don't worry, I'm not a fool, I was just playing with that guy, cuz he gave a vague definition, which isn't complete.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Assasin-TO

[Positive 1,137]

I don't know how spy defined it but if cheating means not in line with the game's rules, camping is definitely not a form of cheating.

[PirateSpider 1,489]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:06 PM, Assasin-TO said:

Cheating has many meanings, and the one that you mean, is probably 'to violate rules dishonestly' (merriam-webster) but the one that I mean is the one that spy gave, which by that definition, makes camping an act of cheating.

The only form of camping that I can think of that could be considered an act of unfair and dishonest practice would be spawn camping - which would be to spawnkill the enemies over and over and over again, alot of the times it involves going to a spot in the enemy base where they have a difficult time getting to and shooting from there. - Other than that, camping is just another valid strategy.

[Son_Goku 514]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:06 AM, Assasin-TO said:

Keep the realm of subjectivity out of this matter. It doesn't matter how you define 'cheating', your opinion is irrelevant in this matter. What matters is the objective definition of 'cheating', as someone just provided.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with what Spy provided, as it clearly lacks context. If you search for "cheating in video games", look at what is coming up:

Literally the same I said in "my" definiton - because you know what - that's just common sense. If you camp, it does not go beyond normal gameplay, so it just is not cheating.

Or would you call Shaft players cheaters? Shaft is supposed to act as a sniper rifle which is a fact, and sniper rifles are made for their user to stand still in cover, so they can kill opponents over a long distance. So by your definition (your definition by the way), that calls campers cheaters, is someone using Shaft a cheater? With sniper rifles you just don't go around 360 noscoping everyone, but you CAMP. IT IS NOT CHEATING.

 

On 7/10/2023 at 6:06 AM, Assasin-TO said:

Moreover, it might be possible that selfing was added to the game also to regain one's health back because as we know, many players used to self when a gold box took around one minute to drop long ago. We see a similar behaviour in esports.

I doubt that selfing, the way people do it right now, used to be intended, as the game is literally punishing you for selfing (losing score, losing kills). If it indeed is allowed in esports (I'm not familiar with their rules), I would personally find it very questionable, as such a brainless "strategy" has no buisiness in something that is skill related. To me it is cheating and it will always be, but yeah, that does not matter here, I give you that.

 

On 7/10/2023 at 6:06 AM, Assasin-TO said:

Likewise, it is possible that camping is an unintended mechanic that is still practiced. It might be possible that the devs wanted this game to be a lively one and not consisting of blokes who sit their fat bums waiting for their opponents to make the 1st move.

Again - arguing with the common sense - this can only be wrong. Are you even familiar with what long range weapons, with long reload times, are made for? Exactly, for standing behind, in cover and for killing people over a long distance. These weapons are literally designed for their user to camp, in order to be used efficiently. So would you call these players cheaters or what? Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. I don't know what there even is to argue here. Should maybe return to the actual point of this topic.

 

Spoiler

Check this link out:

https://www.quora.com/Is-camping-in-first-person-shooter-games-and-third-person-shooter-games-cheating-or-a-solid-fair-strategy-for-winning-in-these-genres-of-video-games

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Son_Goku

[TheCongoSpider 8,943]

On 7/9/2023 at 4:08 PM, Son_Goku said:

When the devs decided to add a way for a tank to destroy itself, I'm pretty sure it was intended to be used when people are flipped or whatever so they could come back to playing. However, people self when they're low life and in a good situation to do it, just to regain full life and to not give their opponent any advantage; this I would say is using selfing in a way it was not intended to, so I would consider it as cheating.

Well this is an interesting viewpoint. I don't see it as cheating, I see it more as expanding on your options in battles by using your tools in creative ways. The main reason I don't see it as cheating is because self-destructing has you dead. When you're dead, you can't influence anything occuring on the battlefield until you materialise again 9 seconds later. It's often a choice between staying alive and injuring or finishing off players around me or far away depending on my equipment, or to self-destruct and hope that my spawn position is favourable and the enemies that are on that section of map near my spawn location don't counter me or shrug off my attacks. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. 

 

 

Next there is self-destructing as it pertains to the game mode. In TDM, if there is an unwinnable engagement that you have an idea when it will end and the scores of both teams are close, it is better to self-destruct than to let the enemy get the kill. Giving them the kill would give them overdrive charge. Also if your team has a dedicated healing Isida that has very few, if not 0 kills, then it would be beneficial to self-destruct in times you're confident you'll die soon, rather than giving the kill. In TDM, self-destructing deducts a point for every kill up to the maximum of how many you have at that point of the battle. An Isida with 0 kills can afford to self-destruct as many times as it wants because it does not have any kills for the system to deduct

In Rugby it just helps you get back to square one after your team scores a goal so you can prepare for when the next ball spawn point is rushed. 

In Assault, for the attacking team to have their best chances of winning, the dedicated flag capturers must self-destruct to deny the enemy team points. There have been so many battles nearly won because I or others were doing it and many battles lost because it wasn't being done enough or at all. 

in Juggernaut, killing and assisting a Jug kill gives a lot of score. Leaving the battle just before dying (if you were frustrated) or self-destructing in an unwinnable situation has the same effect as dying to an enemy but you don't give one or many enemies a big chunk of OD charge. That big chunk of charge can start a positive feedback loop for the strongest enemies and accelerate your defeat. 

I cannot 100% confirm this but I remember many years ago it was said somewhere that your spawn position in CP was determined by what points your team had captured at the time of your death (this was changed to teams having fixed spawn positions regardless of points captured a while ago), and that in Siege, it would try to spawn you relatively far away from the active or next active point. When I play Siege, I passively test this in big maps and it comes out right more than 50% of the time. If I had to rearpull a number it would be between 60-70% accurate. I can use that to my advantage sometimes and get to the point just as it comes up to get some early progress. But I imagine it would mostly be useful in a group with comms to tell your mates which point it might be to get there early. 

 

 

Then there's the fact that the battle experience has changed over the years. The TTK is much lower than years ago. Battles are longer. Status effects run rampant. Players get more battle score than before. Stars in battles no longer rely on whether your team wins or not and it is easier to get 2 or 3 stars than before. For some players -10 battle score isn't a big deal anymore because the environment around them changed to make it a viable strategy. If I were to blame anything, it would be the 'Be on the winning team of X battles' missions they're constantly pushing on us. People are more geared towards winning. You either ride the wave of success immediately/eventually, or you end up like players that come in here complaining about going 10+ battles without a single win when Ultra Containers and stars were on the line. 

 

There's also self-destructing for the benefit of the player's drones but I use Hyperion mostly so I have less of a reason to self-destruct for supply uptime. 

[Son_Goku 514]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:33 AM, TheCongoSpider said:

 

I just don't see pressing a single key, without really thinking about it, just to escape a lost position - potentially changing the whole outcome of a battle - as normal gameplay. I play lots of 2v2s, XP/BP obviously, and sometimes it happens that players make mistakes, get shot for it and self at the best possible timing, just to not have to deal with the health advantage the opponent has. Making that mistake and getting shot for it is obviously your fault and if you intend to play fair, you have to play this situation out, and not cowardly escape it by selfing. It is not fair towards the opponent who got the advantage by actually fighting for it, it has nothing to do with playing competitive and it completely obstructs the game's flow.

Before people say "uhh camping has the same effects" - first of all, the camper has to fight to get into that position, and you can actively prevent him achieving that by killing him. Meaning you can do something against it. However, if your opponent is selfing to even out the field after having made a mistake, you can do nothing against it and have to deal with him again once he's respawning full life. Your advantage is gone, just like that. This I just see as cheating; not normal gameplay. You may agree with this or not, up to you.

In matchmaking it may not be as noticeable if a single player is selfing, but in small battles, you're able to change the entire outcome by selfing just once.

Like, imagine playing League of Legends, making a mistake costing you 70% of your life, and then you just run away and kill yourself to not give your opponent gold and a kill. Sorry, but I find that ridiculous. It's your fault you got into that position, you have to live with it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Son_Goku

[TheCongoSpider 8,943]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:13 PM, Son_Goku said:

In matchmaking it may not be as noticeable if a single player is selfing, but in small battles, you're able to change the entire outcome by selfing just once.

Yeah I was specifically talking about Matchmaking, which tbf is what the game has been tailored towards in the past 5 years. 

I have no idea how it is for PRO battles so I can see why you'd be upset with that. 

[DefkwargX 152]

@Son_Goku, dude it would be better if you remained in your anime world. You're misunderstanding people here, and are arguing for no reason at all because of this. The definition that I quoted is SPY'S definition, NOT MINE. I'm glad that you're raising points that show how this definition is vague and can give rise to ambiguities. I fully support the definition that you gave, and that was my whole point during my whole discussion with that guy. I argued that the definition that he provided is too gave and that the least that he can do is to show the other definitions as well, such as yours. Wanna respond to your other points but am tired of explaining things over and over again, maybe later hhh

Edited July 11, 2023 by Assasin-TO
donut is a cake, nikman :D

[NikmanGT 4,362]

Hey guys, since you guys are free to engage the conversation with any points you like, considering they are related to Tanki itself, keep the conversation and the content you post under check (Respectful and civil), breaking the rules won't be good for any of us.