category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[LambSauce 1,884]

7 minutes ago, Maf said:

Is that right? 

No, that’s not right. @YANUKFIN is saying that the devs place OP augments (e.g. Helios) in the exotic tier, interspersed with other augments (e.g. Plasma Turbo Accelerators) that are just filler.

[Benefactor 6,888]

Extend the reload time.

[Fenrir 335]

1 hour ago, LambSauce said:

No, that’s not right. @YANUKFIN is saying that the devs place OP augments (e.g. Helios) in the exotic tier, interspersed with other augments (e.g. Plasma Turbo Accelerators) that are just filler.

And just so that nobody has room to misinterpret this further - the issue is the colossal power gap of content within the exotic rarity itself. You get an item from it once a blue moon, and even then it might turn out to be a useless piece of garbage since the range of items you can get from the supposedly premium, purposefully-overpowered content tier does indeed end on an absurdly cracked version of Ricochet... yet it starts with a useless dandelion fan (...Seed Turbo Accelerators? Should be an acceptable joke given what we got with Scorpion's looong barrel on the FB page xd) or a mosquito spray (the paralyzing mix is potent enough to petrify one, eh?)

[Dopamine 2,161]

17 minutes ago, Maf said:

You won't see me using Scorpion or DC/RT skins anytime soon.

Or armadillo 

[Maf 32,300]

24 minutes ago, Kazareen said:

 

Ok yeah, I see what you mean. To be honest, after considering that they not only added Helios with its current parameters, but then also buffed it, makes it really hard to keep believing that actual balance between augments is the real goal here.

In the end, I never claimed that Helios is a balanced augment — my first reply in this thread was sarcastic. As for how it should be nerfed, I feel that it gets an enormous benefit from crits, so that would be the first thing to change, with one or more of the following options:

• Remove crits completely
• Reduce critical damage (or at least make it the same as normal damage)
• Reduce critical chance

I think removing crits completely would be a bit much, because Helios already struggles whenever enemies start equipping rico protection. But if crits aren't removed completely, then they should be severely nerfed either by damage or crit chance.

If not crits, then I like yellowghetto's idea of only being allowed to fire when the bar is fully recharged. If it doesn't force you to unload the full clip, then there would still be significant distinction from other long range turrets.

The bounce should be removed for sure. And I also think that reload could be made longer, so that Helios users can't just run into the enemy base guns blazing, and would instead need to stay back, fire from a distance, and hide behind cover to reload.

 

[Rutgers 361]

Critical damage should be removed, and reload time should be increased. My suggested nerfs, no need to make it complicated.

[Fenrir 335]

2 hours ago, Maf said:

I think removing crits completely would be a bit much, because Helios already struggles whenever enemies start equipping rico protection. But if crits aren't removed completely, then they should be severely nerfed either by damage or crit chance.

 

Crit DMG nerf is the way to go. Reducing crit chance without touching the damage dealt makes the weapon a lot weaker normally yet obnoxious with supercharge - a while ago, Vulcan got a sudden, huge bump in crit DMG and it's combination with Dictator or Hornet became the Juggernaut trasher. Alternatively, the stun/emp augments that trigger on crits. It's just a problematic statistic to mess around with, meanwhile reducing crit DMG itself will work all around. I think that in Helios' case, it should deal either the same damage as normal shots or 75% of it - so a crit would be weaker but would bypass the Lion module. This combined with only allowing Helios to fire in complete volleys (no single shots allowed) would make it fair imo.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Kazareen

[YANUKFIN 493]

2 hours ago, Maf said:

So let me summarise your points:

If developers put a balanced augment into exotic container tier, they're conning players by making them spend money, thinking it's OP.
If developers put an overpowered augment into exotic container tier, they're conning players by ruining game balance and making buyers OP

1ST sentence is correct imho. Lets be nice and use the use the word "misleading" they are very good at that, some would say experts.

2ND sentence is incorrect. They are not conning anyone and you know they are not, so stop trying to put words out there and then insinuate they apply to me. 

OP items have a specific purpose, to entice the weak willed buyers to part with cash.  

As for that forgotten word "balance" neither you are the developers pay it any attention. Your flying hack days with rico are testament to that. You thrive on OP items without which you are just another average joe player......AT BEST. 

[NikmanGT 4,362]

56 minutes ago, YANUKFIN said:

OP items have a specific purpose, to entice the weak willed buyers to part with cash.  

That's definitely not true, rather of keeping them as a selling point, OP augments come in a lot of handy in MM. I see many people getting Helios from UCs, a lot of friends I know whereas I don't have one after opening 300+ UCs. I grouped with them, I took my favorite augment, and they just simply took helios without paying too much heed.

Every match they come on top, if not then they have at least 4+ KD in battles. I tried so hard as to overcome the kill or score gap, but helios is that powerful. Same with Twins EMP.

OP items are designed to give a head start in the battle or make the battle completely easy for you. But for some this may not apply, like the fast shooting Twins or the Pulsars augment.

56 minutes ago, YANUKFIN said:

As for that forgotten word "balance" neither you are the developers pay it any attention

Then why did they buff Thunder as well as magnum. Why are they making Rail less focused on crit chance and more of base damage gameplay. If you can list 1000 statements of unfair matchmaking, then I have 1001 statements to counter it. Let's say if they really became obsolete on the balance part, hence they stop tweaking patch updates every week. 
Consider if they think "Let's stop the everyday tweak and make players get a hang of the current balance." Would you be able to live with the current balance for 1 month, or even 2-3 months? What if they have specific measures to counter helios, what if they have a new status augment turret to release that can help as a substitute in countering Helios or literally any other OP augment.

What if they plan to nerf helios in total or introduce it in BP, or either make some other turret changes to counter the OPness of Helios.

I think the weekly patch notes are the best way to expect something new (even if they make OP augments more OP, that's a separate thing).

But if they change their decisions and decide to just tweak balance once in a while or do not pay heed to it, say bye to matchmaking because you helios users will dominate for the whole time, without any outside worries, buyers will continue to purchase UCs, just for helios because they know if they get the augment, then it's golden for them, nobody can touch them in MM. And overall, Tanki "continues to profit as usual". 
Then why after all this, Devs despite on working on separate stuff like UI and more planned updates, make every week patch notes even if it doesn't benefit them that much in terms of money profit ?

Now, if you respect a proper discussion and convo, you may read all this and reply to me properly without any hatred, because that's why I wrote all this, for a healthy discussion, or you can just "TLDR" it and blame me for "choosing or supporting Developers blindly" because I am a helper.

 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

2 hours ago, Maf said:

And I also think that reload could be made longer, so that Helios users can't just run into the enemy base guns blazing, and would instead need to stay back, fire from a distance, and hide behind cover to reload.

Reducing the energy recovery rate is the obvious choice to reduce the power of a burst damage augmnt, and it fits just in line with how they like to treat powerful equipment; justifying the burst damage rather than the reload. You've seen that with Duplet, Sledgehammer Rounds, RFM, Plasma Torch and Freeze. 

 

Everything else that is strong about a piece of burst damage is amplified by its reload or how easy it is to deal. Remember Duplet in 2018? Since then, they've made sure to push Duplet away from Stock Hammer's reload every single time Hammer's clip reload was buffed. Imagine the current 30-pellet, wide spread Duplet with a 3-second reload. We saw how a fast-reload, short-medium range RFM acted in June 2020 and just a few weeks ago. We've seen how Freeze had its range, freezing rate and critical chance (further) reduced to justify its potency. We've seen how Sledgehammer had both its effective range and firing rate reduced in 2019, and had its damage range minimum damage range reduced in 2022 due to its high damage increase. 

 

There are many directions to take Helios when nerfing it. The biggest direction is a hit to its longevity. Give it a 7-8 second reload and see what happens from there. It will no longer be able to take on multiple enemies at once. If an enemy survives the initial burst, they will survive longer now that its reload has been reduced. It will be less desirable to use for long range, and gives it an actual downside for player error in accuracy. The current Helios is too olenient in that regard. 

 

Currently, there is no reason, not even a little, to use Stock/Adrenaline over Helios. 

[NikmanGT 4,362]

14 hours ago, yellowghetto said:

 

Topic Merged

[JustBlackWolf 875]

4 hours ago, Maf said:

 

I think removing crits completely would be a bit much, because Helios already struggles whenever enemies start equipping rico protection.

 

I still get my health reduced to 20-30% even when i equip Rico protection (currently 46%), no protection is a guaranteed kill.

Removing crits would be the way to go.

[Maf 32,300]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

It will be less desirable to use for long range, and gives it an actual downside for player error in accuracy.

Surely you mean more desirable in long range?

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

26 minutes ago, Maf said:

Surely you mean more desirable in long range?

You will deal less damage your maximum damage range ends at 40m. If your reload time is doubled, you will feel less inclined to use it on someone far away to deal less than 50% of your damage. Slow reload puts more emphasis on using your ammo wiesely. 

[yellowghetto 3,206]

13 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

I have mixed feelings about this, Helios is more of an advantage for the player using or more difficult to deal with because of its ability to quickly deal damage or high projectile speed within medium and long range (not that long). Melee turrets and other rico augments at close range aren't that much different that helios is in comparison.

It's highly difficult to dodge any rico shot (irrespective of the augment) at close range. Hence, Helios plays a crucial role in wiping enemies and medium and comparatively large distances.

That's why increasing damage over distance will be the least thing people expect now to be implemented. Because the nerf isn't significant in comparison to the buff presented. It would be a cherry on top for Helios.

Medium and long ranges enemies wouldn't have any alternative to defend themselves, let alone introduce crisis, camper or even booster.

I said, for close and melee range the penalty is -80% damage. But, after passing the medium range boundary, into long range, the damage is increased to what it is right now. 
So what would change if this idea is used, is that Helios would be nerfed to that it would only be effective at long range.

[Hypersomnia 1,695]

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! MY Name is Kimura! And TODAY i will tell you how Helios could be nerfed! And i even added colors to awaken your 9999gs PTSD! ^^

So we all know that Helios is the new Super Villain of Tanki. Its like Dragon Ball villain! It comes outta nowhere and is overpowered as f***!

So here's my nerf. 

Helios was ADVERTISED as > DEFENSIVE < and > SNIPER < augment for Ricoshet.

But now it is...? Defensive, Sniper, Attack, ????, everything. And that is BIG BAD Ladies and Gentlemen.

Helios Augment now:

• Spoiler

   

  • Shot reload: -80% 
  • Energy consumption per shot: -10%
  • Maximum range: +200%
  • Projectile speed: +100%
  • Recoil: -80%
  • Impact force: -80%

   

•  
• What Helios should be (reminder its suppose to be DEFENSIVE AND SNIPER augment):
• Shot reload: -80% 
• Maximum range: +200%
• Projectile speed: +100%
• Recoil: -80%
• Shots bounce up to 2 times
• Damage if all balls hit the enemy = 3000 HP
• Reload: 6 Seconds.
• Inability to shoot balls if your turret is not fully loaded.
• Critical hit damage is the same as normal shot damage.

It may seem like i buffed Helios at first but this would actually be pretty big nerf. Here are some comments why i chose to nerf it in this way. Read it if you want.

Spoiler

 

3000 damage if all balls connect probably gave you chills of horror but let me explain. 
Its suppose to be Sniper augment. What snipers do? They one-shot! And its 3000 HP for a reason. Let's say you have no protection and Helios catches you off guard. You would still have a like a second to react and press repair kit and it would keep you alive with around 1k HP left. and Helios CAN NOT damage you for the next 6 seconds. Yea you would need skill or good reaction or just lucky timing but im sure its better than now getting 90% of your health eaten away and then dying in the next second with absolutely 0 chance to survive. (or just use defender drone for 100% survival without rico prot)

I buffed bounce thing from 1 to 2 because its ricochet turret and most likely you'll need some skill to pull it off i mean ricochet kill. And this way its not just shaft 2.0

Inability to shoot balls if your turret is not fully loaded would be secretly crazy nerf. You shoot your balls enemy survives? Great now you can't do damage for the next 6 seconds. You better pray that your teammates kill that guy you just pissed off.

Critical damage the same as normal shot would allow you to get that one shot in with supercharge against that one guy with protection. Longest possible supercharge duration now is... 7? 8 seconds? So at best you could only get 2 "waves". and it would not be Vulcan Bot conbo 2.0 where with supercharge you would do like 50k damage and still have the balls to say that vulcan is underpowered.

 

Like i said these nerfs might not seem like a lot but it would be huge. and it actually turns ricochet into Sniper turret.

@Opex-Rah you can send me job application right now.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Kimura

[YANUKFIN 493]

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

That's definitely not true

My statement regarding your reply "was true" 

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

OP augments come in a lot of handy in MM

Yes they do, primarily for buyers.

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

Every match they come on top, if not then they have at least 4+ KD in battles. I tried so hard as to overcome the kill or score gap, but helios is that powerful. Same with Twins EMP.

Your stating that this rico augment is OP, exactly what I was saying.

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

If you can list 1000 statements of unfair matchmaking, then I have 1001 statements to counter it.

I doubt that very much. When I can be bothered I will call your bluff. If I mention 25 I'd like to see you counter everyone based on facts, you no what actually happens in battles and not what your glazed over eyes would like to see. 

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

What if they plan to nerf helios in total or introduce it in BP, or either make some other turret changes to counter the OPness of Helios

Some are all of this will happen, once it's cash value has dwindled. 

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

buyers will continue to purchase UCs, just for helios

And any other OP augment the developers bring out.

 

2 hours ago, NikmanGT said:

Then why after all this, Devs despite on working on separate stuff like UI and more planned updates, make every week patch notes even if it doesn't benefit them that much in terms of money profit ?

They make all the cash from OP updates. The UI and other non related battle updates are done to supposedly enhance gaming experience, usually followed by lots of lag and crashes because they just can't get it right first time. The developers are scam artists, the buyers are the mark and neither care about balance because it suits both of them to keep the status quo just the way it is. You have a nice day in the delusional world you reside in, because when it comes to this game you are clueless.

[yellowghetto 3,206]

On 6/27/2022 at 11:26 PM, max6782 said:

I have better idea, remove all overpowered augments and make new that are called alterations. The ones who have advantages and disadvantages.

They won't bring back old updates.

[LambSauce 1,884]

On 6/27/2022 at 5:56 PM, NikmanGT said:

Then why after all this, Devs despite on working on separate stuff like UI and more planned updates, make every week patch notes even if it doesn't benefit them that much in terms of money profit ?

The patch notes are literally planned weeks in advance. Hazel himself stated a few weeks ago what to expect in the update that was still days away.

This isn’t balancing, it’s a farce. What sort of data were they looking at when they decided to buff Helios in a recent patch… 

[YANUKFIN 493]

Shop prices up "AGAIN" utter joke.  3€ for 1 day of premium, bunch of clowns.

[jjg_the_dark 455]

7 hours ago, LambSauce said:

The patch notes are literally planned weeks in advance. Hazel himself stated a few weeks ago what to expect in the update that was still days away.

This isn’t balancing, it’s a farce. What sort of data were they looking at when they decided to buff Helios in a recent patch… 

"planned"? what makes you think that anything Tanki does is planned? Any time they make a change, some big issue creeps up without fail! Anyone who takes Hazel seriously is more of a fool that Hazel himself.  The guy is not only arrogant, but also ignorant. Anyone who would design a Matchmaking system like Tanki is a french fry short of a happy meal and not the brightest light bulb in the christmas tree.  You can talk about equipment all day long and you can come up with ideas to nerf this or nerf that, but unless the system becomes a TRUE matchmaking system were they are MATCHING ranks and equipment alike, you are wasting your time. Just like you are wasting your money if you buy anything from Tanki because you know that a few months down the road, you will get it in a container and it would be nerfed.  Also, there is no point of investing any time in this game, let alone money, until it becomes stable again and you do not get kicked out of the battle or you waste your time to get in the battle and there goes your supplies, effort and  the minutes of your precious Premium account for which you paid good money for it! 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Nice augment variety. 

 

[LambSauce 1,884]

7 hours ago, jjg_the_dark said:

"planned"? what makes you think that anything Tanki does is planned? Any time they make a change, some big issue creeps up without fail! Anyone who takes Hazel seriously is more of a fool that Hazel himself.  The guy is not only arrogant, but also ignorant. Anyone who would design a Matchmaking system like Tanki is a french fry short of a happy meal and not the brightest light bulb in the christmas tree.  You can talk about equipment all day long and you can come up with ideas to nerf this or nerf that, but unless the system becomes a TRUE matchmaking system were they are MATCHING ranks and equipment alike, you are wasting your time. Just like you are wasting your money if you buy anything from Tanki because you know that a few months down the road, you will get it in a container and it would be nerfed.  Also, there is no point of investing any time in this game, let alone money, until it becomes stable again and you do not get kicked out of the battle or you waste your time to get in the battle and there goes your supplies, effort and  the minutes of your precious Premium account for which you paid good money for it! 

No, Hazel knows what he’s doing. He’s putting in all his time and resources into pumping out new augments that disrupt the balance and the devs  thrive off that disruption because it means increased cash flow.

The issues with bugs and DDoS attacks - in other words, the issues that make Hazel look like an ignoramus who doesn’t know what he’s doing - are simply a result of the devs not bothering to reinvest in their own game. It’s not that they’re too stupid to deal with these problems, they just take the players for feeble-minded fools who don’t know what they want.

So why even bother reinvesting into the game servers when it’s much easier and more profitable to just pump out new offers and OP augments every week…

[The_one_and_only 97]

6 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Nice augment variety. 

 

Why is there a 3400 GS person in a battle with legend players?! This makes no sense. How the heck do they even contribute to the team? Haven't they upgraded to mk6 at least? In your game, it has already been 8 minutes and they has a score of 58, it will not even get them one star for their challenge. Tanki should set a limit, at legend, minimum 7500 GS. I mean come on tanki, how do you expect our team to win, with a bunch of recruit level GS players?

[YANUKFIN 493]

2 hours ago, The_one_and_only said:

Why is there a 3400 GS person in a battle with legend players?! This makes no sense. How the heck do they even contribute to the team?

Simple answer, they don't.

The developers no this is a problem but do not care at all, as long as the buyers keep buying their OP trash all is ok in their little cash driven world.

The game is a joke filled with copy/paste augments and underpowered G/S players who do not have a clue.

The only way to have a say is to boycott everyone of their "special" missions, maybe then they will take note that the players are fed up with the unfair way in which most players are treated when these OP, CASH only updates are spewed out every other week. Of course players will not do this because their will power is close to zero.

Until players start behaving in a way that forces the hand of the developers then the status quo will just carry on the way it is, unplayable for most, because without lots of cash you just can't compete on the same level as the buyers.

I have now quit 4 accounts that are no longer viable because of the various changes and OP trash that has blighted the game.

The ball is firmly in the players court, should they choose to acknowledge it.

The limit for legend should be 9000 imo.

Edited July 2, 2022 by YANUKFIN