update Patch Update #694 - Released 22nd July 2022

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:49 AM, Kazareen said:

Got the Salamander Shells thrown at me. You trade off 25% of crit damage for four ticks of burning (at best) and those crits don't happen often either. 

Here's a tip for you for that augment. Thunder, along with Smoky, are the only two turrets currently that can advance their critical hit chances on complete misses. If you end up killing an enemy with a critical hit, you can shoot a few shots anywhere to get your critical hit chance back to say, 10% or 15% with Thunder. 

 

Status Thunders trade critical damage for their status and wide-range application. Them trading critical damage means they can no longer do a 3-shot combo of 900 + 900 + 1,200 to kill a medium hull on equal footing so non-EMP/AP status Thunders will be less of a complete offensive powerhouse and more towards being a group status applier for team utility. 

 

TL;DR You can manually make your critical hits happen more often with Thunder, which synergises well with the Status Thunders for being a great utility for the team. If you want solo effectiveness only, then you're better off using Adrenaline, Subcalibre Rounds, or waiting for AP/EMP Thunder as status options. 

[Fenrir 335]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:56 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

Here's a tip for you for that augment. Thunder, along with Smoky, are the only two turrets currently that can advance their critical hit chances on complete misses. If you end up killing an enemy with a critical hit, you can shoot a few shots anywhere to get your critical hit chance back to say, 10% or 15% with Thunder. 

 

Status Thunders trade critical damage for their status and wide-range application. Them trading critical damage means they can no longer do a 3-shot combo of 900 + 900 + 1,200 to kill a medium hull on equal footing so non-EMP/AP status Thunders will be less of a complete offensive powerhouse and more towards being a group status applier for team utility. 

 

TL;DR You can manually make your critical hits happen more often with Thunder, which synergises well with the Status Thunders for being a great utility for the team. If you want solo effectiveness only, then you're better off using Adrenaline, Subcalibre Rounds, or waiting for AP/EMP Thunder as status options. 

Ah, so misses raise the chance for Thunder. Gotcha, thanks. Still, this augment is really weak as a legendary (cause I can't imagine it staying exotic for long like this) - I think it should increase the temperature by more than just 40%. Ah well.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/27/2022 at 12:28 PM, Kazareen said:

Ah, so misses raise the chance for Thunder. Gotcha, thanks. Still, this augment is really weak as a legendary (cause I can't imagine it staying exotic for long like this) - I think it should increase the temperature by more than just 40%. Ah well.

There are exotic because they are new and have not been pushed to the legendary rarity yet, not because they are powerful. 

Being in containers does not necessarily mean they are powerful. They are parameter changes for the turret not meant to be easily accessible to the playerbsse. Some strengthen a turret's burst damage potential. Some enhance a turret's effectiveness when put in certain scenarios. Some add a status effect occasionally to the turret's damage output. Some patch a particular weakness or disorder a turret may have. There are various types of container augments fit for different purposes. Not everything is Helios or Magnetron Twins. 

 

As for Salamander Shells, it is unfortunately born an Incendiary augment. They toned down the effectiveness of ignition applications on turrets these past few months, whether that be in their application rate (Incendiary Tesla, Hammer, Twins, Vulcan), the potency of the application (Smoky, Firebird, Ricochet), or both (Railgun). 

 

On 7/27/2022 at 12:28 PM, Kazareen said:

Ah, so misses raise the chance for Thunder. Gotcha, thanks. 

Do be aware that it is a doubled-edged sword. Being able to advance your critical hit chances on misses also allows you to completely "miss" a critical hit, as it is pre-determined before you actually shoot it. This is why this tip is good for Status Thunders because their critical hit radius is the full 12m. They cannot miss a critical hit on splash damage as it will trigger anyway. A Stock Thunder and the others have a critical hit radius of 1m which is practically direct hit. If an enemy I'd 2m away, they won't get critical damage and it will "miss". Status Thunders won't have that liability.

[Fenrir 335]

On 7/27/2022 at 6:14 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

Not everything is Helios or Magnetron Twins. 

I'm not expecting it to be at the level of brand new absurd (Vacuum, Hyperspeed and Swarm) either. But it should be decent, at least - Exothermic Tesla has no issues, it raises temperature to the max of all the enemies hit. Smoky's is a garage augment and it has no downsides. Firebird is mostly unaffected, it still ramps up the burning real quick. Ricochet raises temperature quickly and effectively in a 7m AoE. Granted, it has much shorter range than Thunder, but more often than not it can ignite all enemies it can reach without great difficulty - it has an additional mechanic to balance it out vs Twins' fire rate and unlimited fuel supply; two ricocheted shots and they're on fire for ten seconds. Railgun has no penalty either, it just raises the temperature of up to two tanks you pierce by 50%. Imo ALL of these augments are better than Salamander Shells. While the 12m AoE is logical and suits Thunder, it is mostly impractical - I took it for a spin in all modes, and it performs "the best" in SGE - but even there, it's really mediocre. What good is setting, say, four tanks on fire, if the power of that debuff is pretty low, the damage of the shot itself is reduced and the crits don't happen all that often for Thunder anyway? My point is, Thunder should increase the temperature by at least 60% imo.

[TheFatMaxHammer 26]

Speaking of Salamander shells for Thunder, I received it's twin, Wyvern shells in a UC last week.  It applies the freeze effect for about 5 seconds (not sure of exact stats).  The ability for it to apply the effect to multiple tanks is really handy.  I like to press and hold the tab key to see the hull augments equipped on the enemy tanks.  I find most tanks at the legend ranks have the more common and status effect immunities equipped (EMP, AP, JMR) and not freeze immunity, making Wyvern that much more effective in most circumstances.  For example, I shot at a group of 5 tanks guarding their CTF base and froze them all instantly.  As my thunder was able to reload and fire a few more regular damage rounds destroying 3 of them, a teammate managed to take out the remaining immobilized tanks with a magnum/booster drone shot.   Loving it!  BTW 9 times out of 10 I use Thunder with Hunter and maxed Brutus or Trickster 11/20 currently. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by TheFatMaxHammer
grammer

[Fenrir 335]

On 7/27/2022 at 7:48 PM, TheFatMaxHammer said:

Speaking of Salamander shells for Thunder, I received it's twin, Wyvern shells in a UC last week.  It applies the freeze effect for about 5 seconds (not sure of exact stats).  The ability for it to apply the effect to multiple tanks is really handy.  I like to press and hold the tab key to see the hull augments equipped on the enemy tanks.  I find most tanks at the legend ranks have the more common and status effect immunities equipped (EMP, AP, JMR) and not freeze immunity, making Wyvern that much more effective in most circumstances.  For example, I shot at a group of 5 tanks guarding their CTF base and froze them all instantly.  As my thunder was able to reload and fire a few more regular damage rounds destroying 3 of them, a teammate managed to take out the remaining immobilized tanks with a magnum/booster drone shot.   Loving it!  BTW 9 times out of 10 I use Thunder with Hunter and maxed Brutus or Trickster 11/20 currently. 

Are you certain it applies it for only 5s? Wiki says it should reduce the temperature by 1, meaning a 10s freeze. Hope it didn't get nerfed already. In any case... yeah, the Wyvern Shells are simply better because Freezing is very strong now, meanwhile Burning is without a doubt the weakest debuff.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:44 PM, Kazareen said:

I'm not expecting it to be at the level of brand new absurd (Vacuum, Hyperspeed and Swarm) either. But it should be decent, at least - Exothermic Tesla has no issues, it raises temperature to the max of all the enemies hit. Smoky's is a garage augment and it has no downsides. Firebird is mostly unaffected, it still ramps up the burning real quick. Ricochet raises temperature quickly and effectively in a 7m AoE. Granted, it has much shorter range than Thunder, but more often than not it can ignite all enemies it can reach without great difficulty - it has an additional mechanic to balance it out vs Twins' fire rate and unlimited fuel supply; two ricocheted shots and they're on fire for ten seconds. Railgun has no penalty either, it just raises the temperature of up to two tanks you pierce by 50%. Imo ALL of these augments are better than Salamander Shells. While the 12m AoE is logical and suits Thunder, it is mostly impractical - I took it for a spin in all modes, and it performs "the best" in SGE - but even there, it's really mediocre. What good is setting, say, four tanks on fire, if the power of that debuff is pretty low, the damage of the shot itself is reduced and the crits don't happen all that often for Thunder anyway? My point is, Thunder should increase the temperature by at least 60% imo.

And this is where you put it into perspective from the viewpoint of the turret itself. 

 

Tesla - Uses the Minus-Field template and adds a status to the ball detonation when the user is alive. Its application is tied to a secondary firing mode whose accuracy is not consistent, but the ability to fire balls often makes up for that. 

 

Firebird - The nerf primarily affected short-burst applications (less than 1 second of exposure) against enemies that do not have Heat Resistance. 

 

Smoky - Low potency status application along with the damage of Stock. That's its current characteristic. 

 

Ricochet - Uses the Destabilised Plasma template which makes it less effective at surviving melee range encounters, but adds splash damage to enemies when the ball explodes.

 

Twins - Halved projectile speed, halved critical damage, no normal damage increase, reduced critical hit rate from the change to Stock in April. 

 

Railgun - No statistical disadvantage, but it is unfortunately attached to Stock. Railgun's Identity in MM had been tied to its garage augments since 2018. Stock was almost ember practical since than and needed the aid of augments to make the turret better. You start with a 30% critical chance, and as soon as you hit someone with it, you go back to zero and advance +5% every successful hit thereafter. Your critical hit rate and potency of the status was reduced to the point where the true disadvantage is being attached to an unaugmented version of the turret. 

 

In 2022, it is wiser to compare the effectiveness of status augments to that of Stock and/or the turret's garage augments, rather than augments of separate turrets using the same status. You can clearly see why here.

Railgun has no statistical disadvantage, but it will always fall short of Scout, or Round Stabilisation, or Death Herald Compulsator due to what it is attached to, STOCK Railgun. 

Ricochet's status augments are attached to an augmented version of the Stock turret butnid also competing with burst damage options like Berserk and Plasma Torch who on their own can also outperform them in certain battles. 

Smoky's status augments have no statistical disadvantage and are at the top of its augment pyramid, because the status is being added to parameters that are already universally good. 

Thunder's status augments will be better than its current unique garage augments in normal gameplay because its garage augments are generally bad save for Subcalibre. 

 

Railgun's has no disadvantage but is attached to something bad. Smoky's has no disadvantage but is attached to something good. The circumstances for each turret are different and so are their status augments. Each can use separate templates which can have higher or lower effectiveness compared to each other. 

[Me0w_XP 523]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:51 PM, Kazareen said:

Are you certain it applies it for only 5s? Wiki says it should reduce the temperature by 1, meaning a 10s freeze. Hope it didn't get nerfed already. In any case... yeah, the Wyvern Shells are simply better because Freezing is very strong now, meanwhile Burning is without a doubt the weakest debuff.

It should be 10 seconds, according to both DE and EN wikis. Perhaps their enemy had Cold Resistance equipped on their hull.

[TheFatMaxHammer 26]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:51 PM, Kazareen said:

Are you certain it applies it for only 5s? Wiki says it should reduce the temperature by 1, meaning a 10s freeze. Hope it didn't get nerfed already. In any case... yeah, the Wyvern Shells are simply better because Freezing is very strong now, meanwhile Burning is without a doubt the weakest debuff.

I was just guessing 5 seconds as that is the length of time it appeared to be applying the effect for as I was using it.  I'm sure the wiki is accurate when is says 10s but I suppose the effect slowly gets weaker from 1s - 10s.   You're right about the heat effect being weak...I'm glad I got Wyvern and not Salamander!

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:56 PM, TheFatMaxHammer said:

I was just guessing 5 seconds as that is the length of time it appeared to be applying the effect for as I was using it.  I'm sure the wiki is accurate when is says 10s but I suppose the effect slowly gets weaker from 1s - 10s.   You're right about the heat effect being weak...I'm glad I got Wyvern and not Salamander!

Jumper's recent video which was recorded after Patch #694 showed to be afflicted for 10 seconds. What's most likely happening is you're hitting enemies that have Cold Resistance or enemies are removing the status early with repair kits. 

[Fenrir 335]

@TheCongoSpider Thunder's garage augments are honestly bad and Salamander Shells should rank among them. I think what it should be compared with are the other augments Thunder is getting; Wyvern Shells, Hyperspeed Shells, Vacuum Shells, the foreshadowed healing shells, the obvious EMP and AP shells... all of it is much better than Salamander Shells. Yes, Vaporizer has halved crit damage, but it can apply burning much more efficiently and crits themselves constitute less of its total damage than it is in Thunder's case (assuming a crit occurs at all). Tesla's Exothermic Lightning is actually one of its better augments - it has no downsides whatsoever, it just takes the template of a garage augment and adds a free AoE 10s burn to the ball. Railgun still has its unlimited range, and it's only a matter of time before stock and thus Incendiary Rounds as well are competitive again. Destabilized Plasma itself is relevant now (especially for SGE/RGB scenarios), and Rico status augments are a direct upgrade to it. Don't you think Salamander Shells severely lag behind the other augments Thunder is getting? All burning offers is some damage, and considering that it is not affected by boosted damage yet is halved by boosted armor, you are going to realistically get, at best, 300 bonus damage from Salamander Shells over stock - and that's assuming the enemy does not heal it off nor are they immune or resistant to Burning. If they are, you might even end up with a damage LOSS. It's better to use Adrenaline in almost all situations, since that is consistent, boosts regular hits as well and is not affected by enemy immunities. This augment can in no way, shape or form compare to the other legendary augments for Thunder - because ultimately, that's what they're going to be. It's just bad, the other augments in its bracket are directly superior and there is literally no reason to use Salamander Shells over them in any scenario, save for supplies being disabled I suppose - but that just does not happen in MM.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:07 PM, Kazareen said:

Don't you think Salamander Shells severely lag behind the other augments Thunder is getting? 

Circumstances are different for each turret. In Thunder's case, it should be first compared to its other status augments as they share common traits compare to Stock - critical damage being reduced by 25% and critical splash radius being increased to 12m. Similar to Smoky, the status augments' currently shared trait is having a low-potency status applied to Stock's critical hits. Low-potency being used for all except freezing because freezing is the only status in the game they have not toned down on any of the existing augments (for whatever reason).

You cannot directly compare the status augments of, say, Twins. Two use an unexisting template of minimum damage range +50% with one of them having halved critical damage. Two use the non-damage buff Heavy Plasmagun template with one of them having halved critical damage. One uses the Stable Plasma Template and the other uses a completely random template of +50% minimum damage range, +50% projectile speed but a +20% increase in reload time. But in the end, the result should be something at least comparable to Stock or the garage augments. Because that's what most of them ultimately are, augments of Stock. 

An augment should have a purpose for that turret. Salamander Shells fits the purpose of utilising Thunder's core feature to apply a debilitating status effect in the radius. At the heart, it is a status augment, completely separate to augments intended to be burst damage (examples being Helios, Hyperspeed Shells, Duplet, Berserk), or augments intended to be QOL improvements (Sorted Ammunition, Minus-Field, Round Stabilisation). If you're asking for my opinion on Incendiary augments in general, then I will say they indeed went down on them too hard when they were toning them down earlier this year. Salamander Shells was born on a turret and in an age of low-potency incendiary applications. 

 

On 7/27/2022 at 8:07 PM, Kazareen said:

This augment can in no way, shape or form compare to the other legendary augments for Thunder - because ultimately, that's what they're going to be. It's just bad, the other augments in its bracket are directly superior and there is literally no reason to use Salamander Shells over them in any scenario, save for supplies being disabled I suppose - but that just does not happen in MM.

Who's getting the augment matters I guess. Someone who has all of the options and collecting may see it as trash (relative to the million better options they have for general gameplay) but someone who does not have much if any options at all will be glad to get it. Everything is still new so it's best to wait some time until the rest of the Thunder augments come as they are subject to change before being implemented in the game. 

[The_Resistance 135]

I think, HSR must have:

Projectile speed: +200%
Weak damage: 400% 300%
Range of minimum damage: -50%
Range of maximum damage: -50%
Regular damage: -50% -25%
Critical hits removed

So now it not that bad at a short range, but also if you want to use its perk you really need to fight at medium-long range (not 60m like now).